Printing ABS on glass without any additionnal stuff

Hi!

Just wanted to share something I discovered a few days ago, after some experimentations...

I'm now able to print on a glass without any additionnal stuff (ABS juice, sugar, hair spray...)!

The secret: just sand the surface! Ok, that's not an easy task, as you have to take big sandpaper (I found 24), and scrap for a long time (glass is hard!). But the result is really amazing!

This idea came from the new hotbed made from ceramic. I wanted to give a try with a bathroom ceramic. It didn't work at all, so I tried to sand it. It is not bad, but I was still having problems. So, I gave a try on a little mirror I previously used with Kapton. And it worked!

Does anyone else already tried this?

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Frédéric

can you post a picuture what you can print with this methode, i have tried this methode but i wasn't sucsessfull

That is very intersting!

I've been printing on bare glass for over a year now. Never tried anything on the glass as an adhesion promoter. Funny thing, I just used hair spray as a release agent for a fibreglass/epoxy mold I just did.

As for bare glass, I find lots of heat is needed, and if it doesn't stick on the first pass, I just try again.

How about sanding with a fine metal grade sandpaper?

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Yvan

Singularity Machine

I found that it needs to be sanded with very coarse stuff, to get some deep stripes in the glass; I guess this increases the contact surface, and helps sticking.

Gerard, I didn't print very complicated parts yet. Can you point me to a simple but hard-to-stick thing to make a test?

PS: I printed this plane, without problem.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2013 04:54AM by fma.

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Frédéric

Anything that is narrow and tall is hard to keep on the bed.

Flat items like the glider would stick well.

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Yvan

Singularity Machine

I use ABS juice in glass for the first time using the glass. After then I realized I didn't have to re-apply the juice again for each print. It seems to stick very well even without the juice. Maybe it just needs the acetone in the juice to clean the surface

Cleaning glass with acetone is not enough to stick...

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Frédéric

Not that hand sanding is bad, but have you considered either chemically etching or sandblasting the surface to save your arm some effort?

I think chemical way is not good, as it won't make stripes deep enough. And, yes, I though about sandblasting, but I don't have such tool. And I really think we need stripes...

I'm looking for caorse (24) sand paper for my Festool orbital sander, but I can't find some...

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Frédéric

We actually just need glass or another surface that has 0.05mm or 0.1mm dimples or holes in it arranged in a grid pattern. I saw one machine that was using that type of idea and they used nothing to print any abs or PLA.

It may work with simple aluminium plate? Easier to sand!

I was also wondering if PEEK or other heat/mechanical-resistant plastic would do the trick?

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Frédéric

fma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It may work with simple aluminium plate? Easier to
> sand!


>
> I was also wondering if PEEK or other
> heat/mechanical-resistant plastic would do the
> trick?

like kapton

Well, in fact, Kapton is great, but 1) very expensive 2) very fragile!

Maybe a 5mm plate? But it would cost a lot!!!

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Frédéric

First off, a finer sanding would give you more surface area than coarser. So if you find that coarse sticks better, then it's not just a surface area issue.

Second, have you not tried PET film?

Not only does it stick well, it's very affordable. A roll (33M x 200mm) will set you back about $60 and will give you thousands of prints.

IME it works better and is more durable than kapton. And depending on the footprint of the part, you likely won't need juice

You can get the PET film here...

[www.ebay.com]

Has anyone tried frosted glass? Seems it would be the same as sanding it. There is a product called Armour Etch that etches glass and gives it a frost appearance. May have to give it a try!!

@cope413, thank for the PET link! Does it need to be changed often? With Kapton, when I try to unstick the printed part, I always scratch it.. I'm tired to have to change the film...

About sanding glass, I first sanded it with fine sandpaper, and it does not work at all. It is not only the surface, but also the deep of the stripes. The best would be to be able to make deep but narrow stripes. But glass is very strong, and it is very hard to sand it correctly by hand.

I will try to find a rotating tool like this:



but made with very strong strands; this way, with a drill, it will be possible to make nice stripes, in multiples directions. If someone has a link to find something like that...

@mondo50m, as said, frosted glass is made with a chemical proces, and I think it won't be deep enough. But I plan to give it a try, as soon as I find some.

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Frédéric

cope413 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can get the PET film here...

F...k!

"Unfortunately, access to this particular item has been blocked due to legal restrictions in some countries. We are blocking your viewing in an effort to prevent restricted items from being displayed. Regrettably, in some cases, we may prevent users from accessing items that are not within the scope of said restrictions because of limitations of existing technology. Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may cause, and we hope you may find other items of interest on eBay."

Is this OK:

[www.ebay.com]

or:

[www.ebay.com]

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Frédéric

Glass with scratches from sanding and heat if you're using a heated bed doesn't sound very safe tbh.

Ben

Funny you say that, because my glass actually cracked! But not totally (until I move and bring it to the hackerspace).

But while sanding, I had to push very hard on the glass, and I was on a soft support. I though I added some constraints to the glass.

If I can find the tool I was talking about, I think it will avoid that.

But the glass didn't explode

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Frédéric

My old method of just hairspray and abs juice worked pretty good till I tried printing parts that took a long time of where pretty tall. I am interested in this thread cause it would be nice not to have to purchase PET, which I just did. Of coarse with you selling it at 5 for $15 it's not bad of a price. PET is thicker than kapton on a little more durable so it should last for quite a few prints before needing to replace.

I do think it is funny at people are building bigger and bigger repraps without addressing the bed sticking issue. Only gets worse the larger you go.

lotw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [...]
> I do think it is funny at people are building
> bigger and bigger repraps without addressing the
> bed sticking issue. Only gets worse the larger
> you go.

I agree. I tend to print only 1 part at a time, to avoid wasting ABS when something goes wrong. I only print several parts when they are too small, and lead to a short time layer. Having several parts give time to cold down a little bit.

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Frédéric

Frederic, no it won't work. PM me and I'll work out a way to get you a roll

im assuming this is all with a heated bed? i use straight kapton at 120c, works perfect everytime, just remove and dust debris first and wipe with lint free cloth, the only issue is if you touch the tape the oils will mess up the bond.

Frederic - with the PET tape, I can generally get 20-25 prints before replacing it. And I replace it because removing parts actually lifts up on the film and creates creases or air bubbles. You can use a hard squeegee to get any air bubbles out and keep using it.

If you're careful, you could get more. If the bubbles/creases get bad in one area, you can also just plate the print in a different sector of the glass that is fresh and smooth.

If i'm being impatient, I run my glass (borosilicate) under cold water until the print releases on the other side. If you let it cool completely on its own, the prints generally pop right off the PET, and will limit creases and air bubbles.

If you do use a scraper, just make sure you cut or file the edges off the blade and you shouldn't nick or cut the film. It's much more durable than kapton.

Also - if you use juice on the PET tape you will have to work hard to release the print - so for prints that typically warp, juice on the PET will work very well. Gives it a very nice, glossy finish.

Ok, I will give it a try, if it is not too expensive...

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Frédéric

fma Wrote:
> @mondo50m, as said, frosted glass is made with a
> chemical proces, and I think it won't be deep
> enough. But I plan to give it a try, as soon as I
> find some.

Juste tried frosted glass: it works too!!! Maybe not as well as Kapton/PET taped-bed, especially with very tall parts, but for simple parts, it is far enough. As said, I don't even use raft/brim.

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Frédéric

Hi, thanks for the PET/Kapton/ABS tips, it was really helpfull for me. Especially with huge object to print !

Did someone finally try glass with "grid" of 0.05mm or 0.1mm dimples like mentionned above ? Or the combination of glass/pattern + magic juice ?



SkapiN

I found the bed temp bed is 20 degrees C shy of the desired 110. I raised the desired bed temp to 130. Cleaning the glass with isopropyl alcohol with the temperature adjustment solved the sticking problem. I am having issues with the bed reaching any temperature. I have a post regarding this issue.

Grinding glass with this kind of diamond whetstone gave perfect result to me.

some pictures [cee.dy.fi]