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Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?

Posted by SplatHammer 
Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 26, 2017 11:55AM
Since its a good idea to keep the mass of moving parts to a minimum, I was wondering if anyone had tried using a square carbon fiber
tube for the X axis? I am thinking of getting a 20x20 or so tube and mounting a linear rail on top. The advantage is extreme rigidity, light weight
and low thermal expansion. The downside would probably be attaching parts to it. The rail could be epoxied to it and I guess I could clamp it to the rail carriages
on the Y axis rails.
There are 2 types of tubes, wrapped and "pultruded" with the pultruded type looking to be the best as it is extruded
through a die so should have decent tolerances.
If anyone has tried it or has any views on the idea I would like to know!
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 26, 2017 12:08PM
Why not tie a gas filled balloon to the x axis, or even a counter weight?
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 26, 2017 04:23PM
I don't know about anyone using square, but hypercube uses 8mm Roll Wrapped Carbon Fiber Tube (details are on thingiverse)
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 27, 2017 02:27AM
A square tube would probably be better. The rail is easier to mount and a square shape is stiffer in two directions, while a round rod is equally stiff in all directions ( no neccessary here ).
Mounting the rail could be done by blind rivets or self tapping screws. A drop of CA glue helps re-bonding the carbon fibers after drilling holes in it.
Threaded screws would be possible too, you just have to make a rig for the nuts and washers that fits into the tube. The rig could be a simple teleskope antenna with a magnet at the end.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2017 07:51AM by o_lampe.
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 27, 2017 05:33AM
Cool idea - I could use anti-matter to cancel the mass, creating an inertia free beam! Seriously, I appreciate sensible answers only. Thanks.
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 27, 2017 05:36AM
Thanks for the info, I will check it out. It does seem like a good idea as it has ideal properties. I do think that the pultruded would be best
as it should have better straightness, I will check with the manufacturer to see if they have full specs.
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 27, 2017 05:38AM
Thanks for that! What is CA glue? I am thinking that the brass threaded mini inserts I use for printed stuff and bolts would work well if I
can manage to get them in the right spot in the tube. I predict many hours of pulling my hair out trying the line them up!
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 27, 2017 05:44AM
CA glue, Cyanoacrylate (super glue), i would use a thin type so it penetrates the fibres.
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 27, 2017 07:57AM
Those press fit nuts might not hold strong enough. There are threaded insert rivets, they do a better job IMHO. But they require a special tool.

I've learned that pultruded rods are lower quality than woven ones. Maybe the woven tubes are made in a mould?
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 27, 2017 10:49AM
Why don't you just drill the back side of the tube for nut driver access and the front side for the linear guide mounting screws?


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 27, 2017 08:12PM
I'm using carbon fiber tubes in my core-xy, it's not based on the hypercube pre-se but I did take his idea for the tubes and bushings. I'm still in the build-phase so cannot comment on the performance yet, but I also made my design based on the concept of reduced moving weight.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2017 08:13PM by obelisk79.
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 30, 2017 04:15AM
Quote
o lampe
I've learned that pultruded rods are lower quality than woven ones. Maybe the woven tubes are made in a mould?

That is very useful to know thanks!

I have some threaded brass inserts which would be perfect for this. I have 2 types - one that pushes in from the front and another that goes in from the back with a flange to prevent pull through.
I can use them for this. By the way I am surprised more people with 3d printers dont use the insrts for their stuff, they work really well.
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 30, 2017 10:38AM
Has anyone compared the weight of the CF tubes to the equivalent size of aluminum tubing?


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
November 30, 2017 12:08PM
Quote
the_digital_dentist
Has anyone compared the weight of the CF tubes to the equivalent size of aluminum tubing?

No, but for the same volume of material carbon fiber is roughly 40% lighter than aluminum. I would suspect after mounting etc you could realistically expect somewhere in the ballpark of 30+% potential savings? The tubes I have are incredibly light.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2017 12:12PM by obelisk79.
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
December 01, 2017 11:16AM
I know that carbon fiber sometimes shows up in pick and place machines, but it seems to have fallen out of favor. These days an epoxy granite base seems to be the trendy thing to do.

My guess is that when you consider the weight of the entire axis, switching to carbon fiber just doesn't make enough of a difference.

I could see it helping for a 3d printer but I think you will be chasing marginal gains and the stuff is pretty expensive. Drilling CF also shreds drill bits and produces nasty dust.

I suspect for the dollars and effort spent you could make other design improvements that might be more effective.
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
December 02, 2017 04:57AM
Woven carbon fibre tubes are made on a mandrel. There is a hybrid between a pulltruded tube and a roll wrapped tube where they take a pulltruded tube and put a carbon braided sleeve over it. Pulltruded tubes are very susceptible to splitting down the length of the tube as there are no fibres going around the tube to hold it together, the hybrid tubes are probably better in this way.

Idris


{Precision Piezo} Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters.
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
December 02, 2017 10:39AM
Just like anything else, carbon fiber can be obtained at low cost from china. Quality is at your own risk.
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
December 02, 2017 03:47PM
Pulltruded CF tube is great for delta printers where the load is longitudinal. For any application that produces bending loads, I would use roll-wrapped tube.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2017 03:48PM by dc42.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Has anyone tried using carbon fiber tube for the X axis?
December 07, 2017 07:00PM
I've been using aluminum tubes for X/Y axis and bronze bushings for 2 years now on one of my printers.
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