Probe Wizard: Missing reference to based "paper" thickness?

Hello forum community,

I've never noticed it before, as I usually set the Z offset by feel.
Since I'm changing nozzle sizes more and more often these days, I've gotten into the habit of using the "Probe Wizard" for this.
It generally works quite well, as long as you don't forget to set the offset to zero beforehand.

However, a question arose that I haven't been able to really answer, even after a long search in the documentation and GIT...

When I use a sheet of paper or another tool (for example, I use a 0.100mm thick feeler gauge, like those used in automotive mechanics to adjust valve clearance), an either/or question inevitably arises:

Either...
- the wizard assumes a certain paper thickness, which is automatically added,
or
- it assumes a paper thickness of zero.

In the first case, it would be good to know what thickness is actually assumed; at least, it's not documented anywhere, or at least I haven't been able to find it anywhere.

I personally don't think the second case is particularly applicable, as in my opinion, it's not suitable in terms of accuracy or reproducibility.


Does anyone have the relevant information?

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DLzG...
Micha

... this was something from the "beginning" or the early years, when we started at 2007.

"Paper sheet" was the easiest and most available methode to get a uniform distance and was meant for printing paper with 0.1mm thickness ...

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Viktor
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Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

Quote
VDX
... this was something from the "beginning" or the early years, when we started at 2007.

That's true. But it's still used to determine the Z offset, either with the wizard or manually. So, "old" doesn't have to be bad; quite the opposite

So if 0.1 mm is used as the "paper thickness" here, I'm exactly on the right track with my 0.100 mm gauge.
If I interpret your explanation correctly, then these 0.1 mm are the base (also today), which are then automatically added internally, which is ultimately what my question was about?

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DLzG...
Micha

... IIRC it was first pretty simple, without any internal compensation, as you move the head in Z, until the paper is just caught, then set this position as "0".

The next, more "comfortable" adjust, was the Z-offset parameter, measured with the "paper methode", then saved into the parameter set.

All this fancy "calculation" was then added for the automatic bed-level measuring with a probe ...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2025 05:08AM by VDX.

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

...so the Z position is actually set to zero, even though there's still 0.1mm of "paper" left between the nozzle and bed? So it's not added internally?

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DLzG...
Micha

... yes, this is, what I know or remember ...

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

Thanx a lot! This helps immensely, even if it's not (yet) a proven fact.
This also sufficiently explains why, after using the wizard, you (I) have to add the 0.1 mm to get usable results. This becomes even more noticeable the smaller the nozzle and the thinner the layer thickness.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2025 06:23AM by CBX.Micha.

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DLzG...
Micha

... in one of my actual projects I'm trying to create and to "print" ultra thin layers with down to some hundred nanometer thickness -- but it's not with "common" FDM, but more with thermo-transfer ... but too, experimented, what's the thinnest layer height, possible with FDM and smaller bore diameters - best was 20 microns with a 0.1mm (100microns) bore, but not really usefull or reproducible ... it runs much better with 0.15mm bore diameter and 30 microns layer height ... or bigger/thicker ... and too, highly depending on material properties and ambient or bed temps ...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2025 08:51AM by VDX.

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Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

... crazy

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DLzG...
Micha

... here one of the testresults with copper - from left to right the "printed" layer heights were from "0" to some ten nanometers to maybe 1 micrometer on the rightmost side.

When repeating this 2x, then from mid to right the layers starts to get "thick enough" to look metallic, as pure copper chould be

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Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

That's pretty cool!
Could be used as a finish after smoothing the surface...
But I don't need to worry about that. My DIY printer is nowhere near precise enough to reproduce something like that.

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DLzG...
Micha

... DIY can be pretty sophisticated with a good idea - this is the target with this type of "thermotransfer" ... e.g. conductive layers or any type of materials on any type of surface (here PCB's made of glass, paper or plastic sheets)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2025 04:57AM by VDX.

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Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

Wait! Is there payable conductive filament on the market???

.. and now try to solder some semis on it

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DLzG...
Micha

... there are some, but not conducting as good, as pure metal ( [filamentworld.de] or [3dk.berlin])

I'm coating the surface with a thin layer of metal and repeat this, until the thickness is sufficient for the needed current.

But the material could be any other typt too - plastic, ceramic, glass, ... - or any combination in any count or variation of materials in the stacked "layers".

Here for example Titanium oxide on a tile - one sheet is gray, with a second it's "pure black":






Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2025 05:51AM by VDX.

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Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

WOW! This stuff isn't exactly a bargain ^^

It would be a good application for printing enclosures for oscillators and mixers. But a regular plastic enclosure covered with copper foil or bent and soldered tinplate is much cheaper and, above all, significantly more RF-proof.
At that price, you have to find an application that doesn't allow for any other options...
What I also couldn't find is data on conductivity for a defined cross-section and length. The diagrams shown are nice, but that's all they do, since they don't specify how it was determined...

The end is unlikely (yet) to be presented to the average amateur radio operator and hobby electronics enthusiast...

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DLzG...
Micha

... some other methodes to coat printed housings with metal is to spray or paint it with a conductive material, then use galvanics to coat it with the metal, previously solved in the galvanic bath.

Here are some paints or copper-stripes or other eventually usefull and slightly cheaper conductives - [www.amazon.de]

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Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]