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Duet development news

Posted by dc42 
Re: Duet development news
June 08, 2016 12:55PM
I too have wired but not wireless where I want to use the printer. Cat 5e cable, Gigabit ethernet, POE too but no wifi. sad smiley It won't put me entirely off buying the Duet for my new planned printer but it's a shame that I'll also have to go out a buy some sort of dongle thing and cease to use a perfectly serviceable cable/wired connection.
Re: Duet development news
June 08, 2016 02:29PM
The drivers will be revealed next week - but I doubt that you will be disappointed!

It looks like we will have a few pre-production boards left over from the beta test programme. We will be selling these at the heavily discounted price of £55 + carriage + VAT if applicable. We don't promise that these will be identical to the production boards, but we are guaranteeing firmware support for at least a year or money back (our option) in the unlikely event that we make an incompatible hardware change when we manufacture the production board. These will be available starting about 2 weeks from now. Send me a PM with your country and PayPal email address if you are interested. We are restricting people to one board each.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Duet development news
June 08, 2016 04:27PM
Two processors is a great idea, does that mean the wifi processor can act as an external watchdog to the main processor? reseting the board in the unlikely event of a that the main processor get stuck could be a great way of making sure the heaters don't get left on full blast.
Re: Duet development news
June 08, 2016 04:48PM
Quote
jmg123
Two processors is a great idea, does that mean the wifi processor can act as an external watchdog to the main processor? reseting the board in the unlikely event of a that the main processor get stuck could be a great way of making sure the heaters don't get left on full blast.

Nice idea; however the main processor already has one hardware and one software watchdog to do that.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Duet development news
June 08, 2016 05:56PM
Out of curiosity, once you have finalized the latest design, what's the time-delay involved before Filastruder will have these boards or will it be month(s) long delays before the US supplier can sell / offer them?
Re: Duet development news
June 08, 2016 07:45PM
Quote
dc42
Quote

Sadly I personally agree, despite having an excellent wifi point inside the garage used for printing I would always hard wire things like this.

aussiephil, please can you explain why?

a quick network description then an explanation so please indulge for a minute.

I acknowledge that my home network set up is not usual even for small offices, it consists of three layer 3 gigabit switches plus a layer 2 switch in the garage that provide vlan and multicast traffic isolation between my home and christmas lights network traffic, the security cameras are planned to go on their own vLan as well. Two also provide POE for security cameras and wifi points.
The four wifi access points are configured as a seamless roaming environment, all four provide dual 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz connectivity with the two primary points being business grade devices and the other two being decent consumer grade units.

The above should indicated and in fact it is the case that my networking environment is a robust and dependable set up.

Still all devices that I would like guaranteed connection to are hard wired into the network and with the excellent web based control of the Duet I definitely want guaranteed access to the interface of a machine that is both moving and heating. I personally do not believe wifi is the best connection methodology. In my network environment assuming I mount the duet WiFi correctly I see little reason it would not be as solid and reliable but it does add another network hop that for me would not normally be required.

I didn't notice any WiFi specs listed but if the unit is only using 2.4GHz band then in higher congested areas this could also be less than optimal........ However, for 99.9% of users buying a commercial or reprap kit with a Duet and only having home WiFi this is perfect.

This is just my personal view and relative to my own environment and won't stop me buying and using one smiling smiley
Re: Duet development news
June 08, 2016 08:45PM
I agree with the decision to go wireless actually, for the following reasons:

1) The majority of people have setups where it is more practical to set up wifi and have the printer wherever they want, rather than have the ability to easily set up a router and printer near each other.
2) Assuming the router is set up correctly, it should be equally as reliable as an ethernet connection, if not more because there is no cable to come loose. If the wifi drops, it is generally because the internet or power is cut from the whole system, not just wifi.
3) It gives the printer more flexibility in regard to design, as dc42 stated earlier, as there is no external cable dangling from the controller board. It can now be placed anywhere on the printer, allowing for unique/more practical designs.
4) It gives the printer a cleaner look, again, because of only one dangly cable (the power). This makes it much more suitable for any environment where the printer is showcased (granted this affects a minority).

Of course, it's not like dc42 is going to change it at this stage in the game. This is only for the purpose of having a discussion, because it's not going to affect anything anyway, lol.
Re: Duet development news
June 09, 2016 03:22AM
I dont see WiFi being an issue. Its only a viewing portal and not the control interface. It doesnt need to stream G-Code to the machine only allow you to view what its doing. Some extra latency on that if it is increased at all isn't going to affect a print. Even dropping connection a few times shouldn't mess things up unless you need to emergency stop. I guess as long as there is a physical emergency stop button then I think its a good idea.

Most people have wifi and its often far cheaper to add wifi than it is to route ethernet.

Maybe there could be a header and future driver support for an external Phy and RJ45 daughterboard?

my 2p

Keep up the good work
Re: Duet development news
June 09, 2016 04:07AM
Quote
veryevil
I dont see WiFi being an issue. Its only a viewing portal and not the control interface. It doesnt need to stream G-Code to the machine only allow you to view what its doing. Some extra latency on that if it is increased at all isn't going to affect a print. Even dropping connection a few times shouldn't mess things up unless you need to emergency stop. I guess as long as there is a physical emergency stop button then I think its a good idea.

Most people have wifi and its often far cheaper to add wifi than it is to route ethernet.

Maybe there could be a header and future driver support for an external Phy and RJ45 daughterboard?

We could do a small board that replaces the WiFi module and provides a wired port instead. It would need to include an Ethernet-capable processor, Ethernet phy chip, flash memory chip and Ethernet socket. However, I suspect that most people who insist on wired Ethernet will choose to use Rpi and Octoprint. With RPis costing so little, we might not be able to compete with that.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2016 04:15AM by dc42.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Duet development news
June 09, 2016 04:22AM
Quote

I personally do not believe wifi is the best connection methodology.

I agree.... the stability of a wired connection is not replaceable on WiFi.

I have too many WiFi around (more than 30 on the list usually).

Are you sure that it works properly?

Dario

p.s. right now I have a couple of LEDs that show me the active connection...
same on the WiFi?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2016 12:29PM by Ormerod187.


Ormerod 187
Firmware Electronics: Duet 0.6
Firmware Version:1.18.1 (2017-04-07)
Web Interface Version:1.15a
Slic3r 1.2.9a and Simplify3D 4.0.0
[www.dropbox.com]
Re: Duet development news
June 09, 2016 05:52AM
I am happy the ethernet cable is gone!


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Re: Duet development news
June 09, 2016 06:18AM
I think WiFi is a good choice, especially as it is only for file upload and accessing the web interface.

I reckon whatever you had chosen, there would be a minority of people who didn't like the choice, delete as applicable

  • Ethernet but no WIFI- why didn't you use WIFI? hardly anyone has Ethernet in the right place these days.
  • Wifi but no Ethernet - why didn't you use Ethernet? I don't have a wifi router/ I have an unusually sophisticated home network architecture.
  • Wifi and Ethernet - why didn't you include bluetooth/carrier pigeon/100GBit Fibre Optic?
PRZ
Re: Duet development news
June 09, 2016 12:43PM
I am among those who prefers wired connection, and have the will to face the hassle of ethernet cable routing.
But survey of a printer is not a critical application provided you have an emergency stop.
You can add a physical pause button for less urgent stop, see [reprap.org], so that allow facing most problems even in case of temporary communication loss.

However, I think the choice of WiFi is wise commercially as this is what is mostly available and easier for the majority of people, so this will give serious commercial advantage to the Duet, being the only board for DIY printers having this capability.
That and the software quality may drive this board to be leading the 'high-end' market, which will in turn, benefit all other Duet users.

Duet 0.8.5 will still be available and do work. The main question is the advantages of new drivers, notably in terms of noise.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2016 12:47PM by PRZ.


Pierre

- Safety [reprap.org]
- Embedded help system for Duet and RepRap Firmware [forums.reprap.org]
- Enclosed delta printers Lily [rouzeau.net] and Lily Big [rouzeau.net]
- OpenScad delta printer simulator [github.com]
- 3D printing on my site [www.rouzeau.net]
Re: Duet development news
June 09, 2016 01:28PM
Quote
PRZ
You can add a physical pause button for less urgent stop, see [reprap.org], so that allow facing most problems even in case of temporary communication loss.

You can add an emergency stop button too. If you look at the description of the M581 gcode, I specified that trigger #0 does an emergency stop - so that the firmware doesn't need to be able to read the SD card to do it.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Duet development news
June 09, 2016 04:24PM
Quote
PDBeal
Out of curiosity, once you have finalized the latest design, what's the time-delay involved before Filastruder will have these boards or will it be month(s) long delays before the US supplier can sell / offer them?

There won't be long delays. Filastruder is already involved, they will be sending pre-production boards out to customers for them in the US.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
PRZ
Re: Duet development news
June 09, 2016 07:32PM
That may be discussed, but in my view something called 'Emergency shutdown' shall be actually an emergency shutdown and cut all power to comply with regulation and practice. As a board "emergency shutdown" actually reinitialize it, so loose all data, an actual ESD may not make any real difference for the user and be much safer. If such button is installed, I'd much prefer being it labelled 'reset' or 'reinit', than 'Emergency shutdown'.

The power of a printer being relatively low, you can directly shut the main power without relay with an emergency shutdown switch (the red mushroom type model).

The wiki page Safety: [reprap.org]

Quote
dc42
Quote
PRZ
You can add a physical pause button for less urgent stop, see [reprap.org], so that allow facing most problems even in case of temporary communication loss.

You can add an emergency stop button too. If you look at the description of the M581 gcode, I specified that trigger #0 does an emergency stop - so that the firmware doesn't need to be able to read the SD card to do it.


Pierre

- Safety [reprap.org]
- Embedded help system for Duet and RepRap Firmware [forums.reprap.org]
- Enclosed delta printers Lily [rouzeau.net] and Lily Big [rouzeau.net]
- OpenScad delta printer simulator [github.com]
- 3D printing on my site [www.rouzeau.net]
Re: Duet development news
June 09, 2016 08:42PM
Please tell me if this is a silly question, but if you are going so far as to install an emergency shutdown switch, would you not already be adding a regular power switch that you can hit to kill the power?

I agree with PRZ's view in that an "emergency shutdown switch" should actually kill the power. This is the best way to go about it anyway. If the hardware is screwy then the software e-stop is fine, but if the firmware is freaking out and you need the e-stop, there is no guarantee it will work. Unless of course it's wired to the reset button already on the board. And once again, please correct me if I am misunderstanding something here.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2016 08:43PM by Masterjuggler.
PRZ
Re: Duet development news
June 09, 2016 09:25PM
Not very nice photo and not very nice paint Job, but this is the actual face of my D-Box Delta.

Red switch on the right is the 24V, small pushbutton is the pause button (wired in parallel with the filament detection).
The general switch is the tiny white switch on the right of the Emergency button, and they are indeed wired in serie. It was not very clever to have the 24V switch much more visible than the power switch, but this was what I had at hand.
All these buttons had already moved, hence the glued paper covering the former ESD hole.
One day, I will change the 24V switch... and glue another piece of paper !

In the (unlikely) case that someone else than me have to shut the printer in case of trouble, this is clearly unambigous, and that is the purpose.




Pierre

- Safety [reprap.org]
- Embedded help system for Duet and RepRap Firmware [forums.reprap.org]
- Enclosed delta printers Lily [rouzeau.net] and Lily Big [rouzeau.net]
- OpenScad delta printer simulator [github.com]
- 3D printing on my site [www.rouzeau.net]

Re: Duet development news
June 09, 2016 10:10PM
Could you clarify what the difference is between 24v and general power? Unless you are saying you have two PSUs in there, one 12v and one 24v for whatever reason...

And to be clear, the e-stop is a momentary switch wired in series with the general rocker switch, to momentarily cut the power when pressed? That actually seems like a pretty good system, but I agree with the strange sizes of the switches haha.
Re: Duet development news
June 10, 2016 12:21AM
Quote
Masterjuggler
Could you clarify what the difference is between 24v and general power? Unless you are saying you have two PSUs in there, one 12v and one 24v for whatever reason...

And to be clear, the e-stop is a momentary switch wired in series with the general rocker switch, to momentarily cut the power when pressed? That actually seems like a pretty good system, but I agree with the strange sizes of the switches haha.
E stop switches like that one aren't really momentary, they stay in position (off) once triggered until you manually release them. Typically done with a twist on that style. I have one somewhere in my junk bin that has a lock tumbler setup so you need a key to reset the switch. Every modern machine tool has this style switch, although in that case they are wired into a system level PLC responsible for safety interlocks, e-stop, drive enables etc. If for some reason you need to E stop things, you don't want power re-enabled the second you take your finger off the button.
Re: Duet development news
June 10, 2016 04:34AM
Quote
dc42
It looks like we will have a few pre-production boards left over from the beta test programme. We will be selling these at the heavily discounted price of £55 + carriage + VAT if applicable. We don't promise that these will be identical to the production boards, but we are guaranteeing firmware support for at least a year or money back (our option) in the unlikely event that we make an incompatible hardware change when we manufacture the production board. These will be available starting about 2 weeks from now. Send me a PM with your country and PayPal email address if you are interested. We are restricting people to one board each.

Thanks to all of you who have sent me messages asking for beta boards. I have not had time to reply to you individually, but you should hear from Think3DPrint3d soon confirming that you are on the list.

All pre-production boards are now allocated and the list is closed. We hope to supply all of you who are on the list, but the last few of you to apply may be unlucky if we get too many boards that fail testing and can't easily be rectified.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
PRZ
Re: Duet development news
June 10, 2016 10:24AM
I have indeed two power supplies, 24V and 5V (taken from the 24V), so shutting down the 24V to board allow to communicate with the board with the power drivers off (but the 24V PS is on). As now my hotend fan is in 5V, this is less useful than before.

The initial purpose of this separated 5V was to be able to have a relay shutting down the 24V power like on ATX power supply. In case of a board MOSFET failing conductive, this is the ONLY WAY to stop heating. Relay not installed yet, but it could be wired on the board ATX output.

The question is: does RepRap Firmware shut down the power supply if there is an uncontrollable heater runaway ? I would like to now that.

As for E-Stop, this is indeed one with a mechanical locking. Direct shut like that without relay is in agreement with European safety rules, and the simplest way because relay needs be special for safety loop (was acceptable for safety to serialise the two contacts of an ordinary 2RT relay, don't know if still accepted).

Quote
Masterjuggler
Could you clarify what the difference is between 24v and general power? Unless you are saying you have two PSUs in there, one 12v and one 24v for whatever reason...

And to be clear, the e-stop is a momentary switch wired in series with the general rocker switch, to momentarily cut the power when pressed? That actually seems like a pretty good system, but I agree with the strange sizes of the switches haha.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2016 10:34AM by PRZ.


Pierre

- Safety [reprap.org]
- Embedded help system for Duet and RepRap Firmware [forums.reprap.org]
- Enclosed delta printers Lily [rouzeau.net] and Lily Big [rouzeau.net]
- OpenScad delta printer simulator [github.com]
- 3D printing on my site [www.rouzeau.net]
Re: Duet development news
June 10, 2016 10:59AM
Quote
PRZ
I have indeed two power supplies, 24V and 5V (taken from the 24V), so shutting down the 24V to board allow to communicate with the board with the power drivers off (but the 24V PS is on). As now my hotend fan is in 5V, this is less useful than before.

The initial purpose of this separated 5V was to be able to have a relay shutting down the 24V power like on ATX power supply. In case of a board MOSFET failing conductive, this is the ONLY WAY to stop heating. Relay not installed yet, but it could be wired on the board ATX output.

The question is: does RepRap Firmware shut down the power supply if there is an uncontrollable heater runaway ? I would like to now that.

As for E-Stop, this is indeed one with a mechanical locking. Direct shut like that without relay is in agreement with European safety rules, and the simplest way because relay needs be special for safety loop (was acceptable for safety to serialise the two contacts of an ordinary 2RT relay, don't know if still accepted).

Quote
Masterjuggler
Could you clarify what the difference is between 24v and general power? Unless you are saying you have two PSUs in there, one 12v and one 24v for whatever reason...

And to be clear, the e-stop is a momentary switch wired in series with the general rocker switch, to momentarily cut the power when pressed? That actually seems like a pretty good system, but I agree with the strange sizes of the switches haha.

You could do the following, which doesn't need a separate 5V supply. Get a relay with a 5V or 24V coil. Wire the coil across the 5V output from the Duet or the 24V supply, with a whatever protection mechanism you want in series with it, such as a NC emergency stop push button, thermal cutout etc. Also connect a flyback diode across the coil to be nice to the switches and electronics. Use the NO contacts of the relay to control mains power to the PSU. Connect a NO mains rated push button in parallel with the relay contacts. Thus is the Start button. When you press it, the PSU starts up and the relay energises, so you can release the push button. If anything interrupts the current to the relay coil, power is cut and remains cut until you press Start again.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2016 11:00AM by dc42.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
PRZ
Re: Duet development news
June 10, 2016 08:08PM
Yes, I thought to that, a relay energised by the board after the Board start-up.
A DC/DC SSR could be maintained by the ATX output, which role is precisely to switch power, but that rise questions:
- Is the ATX pin set down in case of uncontrolled thermal runaway ?
- How long after the start-up the ATX pin level rise ? before the config.g reading ? after ? Can there be transitional values during the start-up ?


Pierre

- Safety [reprap.org]
- Embedded help system for Duet and RepRap Firmware [forums.reprap.org]
- Enclosed delta printers Lily [rouzeau.net] and Lily Big [rouzeau.net]
- OpenScad delta printer simulator [github.com]
- 3D printing on my site [www.rouzeau.net]
Re: Duet development news
June 10, 2016 10:52PM
Currently the ATX power pin is not deactivated in the case of thermal runaway, but that could be implemented.

You would need to add a M80 command in config.g to activate the ATX power pin at startup. My Duets start up in well under a second. On the Duet 0.8.5 and Duet WiFi there should be no transitional states of that pin.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
PRZ
Re: Duet development news
June 11, 2016 01:56PM
That will be a significant improvement for safety, but you may need to write a report file on the SD card before shutting down everything, for the user to know the cause of power stop.

Quote
dc42
Currently the ATX power pin is not deactivated in the case of thermal runaway, but that could be implemented.

You would need to add a M80 command in config.g to activate the ATX power pin at startup. My Duets start up in well under a second. On the Duet 0.8.5 and Duet WiFi there should be no transitional states of that pin.


Pierre

- Safety [reprap.org]
- Embedded help system for Duet and RepRap Firmware [forums.reprap.org]
- Enclosed delta printers Lily [rouzeau.net] and Lily Big [rouzeau.net]
- OpenScad delta printer simulator [github.com]
- 3D printing on my site [www.rouzeau.net]
Re: Duet development news
June 11, 2016 02:17PM
I'd like to use the new duet however there are two problems. The first one is about PayPal. Unfortunately they had to stop their activities in my country due to licensing problems since the beginning of june. Are you going to offer another option for paying (credit card). The second problem is about customs. If the declared value is over 75 euros, the board is going to be examined by customs. While this is ok and I am willing to pay for the tax, anything related to 3d printing is considered to be an industrial item and I need to be a company to be able to pick it fron the customs. Is there a way to declare it under 75 euros?
Re: Duet development news
June 11, 2016 04:41PM
What type of thermocouple(s) is/are supported with the daughter board?
Re: Duet development news
June 11, 2016 05:44PM
Quote
drmaestro
I'd like to use the new duet however there are two problems. The first one is about PayPal. Unfortunately they had to stop their activities in my country due to licensing problems since the beginning of june. Are you going to offer another option for paying (credit card). The second problem is about customs. If the declared value is over 75 euros, the board is going to be examined by customs. While this is ok and I am willing to pay for the tax, anything related to 3d printing is considered to be an industrial item and I need to be a company to be able to pick it fron the customs. Is there a way to declare it under 75 euros?

I suggest you get in touch with ThinkDPrint3D - they will be taking payment and dispatching the boards.

Which country are you in?



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Duet development news
June 11, 2016 05:46PM
Quote
deckingman
What type of thermocouple(s) is/are supported with the daughter board?

K-type thermocouples. If you use the cheap welded tip type, then you will need to insulate them electrically from the hot end metalwork.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
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