3D Systems and Cubify and "The Cube"

I've seen the press on this machine. I've seen the Makerbot vs. Cube interview at CES. Both are laughable... it was nice seeing Bre on the ropes though.


After seeing the most recent blog post on the reprap.org blog ( [blog.reprap.org] )
I just wanted to address some of the items on the specs page of the Cube. ( [cubify.com] ) Maybe this falls under the RANT category... here goes.

Description

>The Cube - the first 3D Printer designed for your home!

False right off the bat! Seems like every 3d printer states this. Reprap, Makerbot, Printrbot, etc.

>Print Size - 5.5” x 5.5” x 5.5” (140 x 140 x 140 mm)

And they claim to make shoes on this thing?

>Print Jets - 1
>Materials - ABS
>Layer Thickness - 5 mil (125 Microns)

Am I crazy or does this say 5 millimeter layers? If not it means 125 microns= 0.125 mm. That's impressive. No really. I print at 0.3mm.
(I just did a search for mils. It means 1000th of a inch. Seems really archaic to use this term instead of mm.

>Build Speed - Fast

Come on, use mm per second like the rest of the world. Using main feed rate as a standard, slow is 30mm/sec or less (Makerbot, Mendel) , average is about 60 (Prusa), fast is 250 (Ultimaker, I see you over there...)

>Integrated Solution - Yes

Not sure that this means. Maybe one piece?

>Automated Support Generation - Yes

Again, not sure....automated phone directory? "Turn it off, turn it back on. Press 1 if it works press 2 if it doesn't" #2! "Turn it off...."

>Support Removal - Breakaway

Standard.

>Water Soluble Supports - No

This is disappointing for a "high end" machine.

>PC Required for Builds - To create print file

This is normal but again for this price an integrated interface should have been included.

>Data Transfer - USB, Wi-Fi

Wifi?! Interesting....

>Data Formats - STL

Of course. 3D systems invented the STL. Will it be locked or encrypted? Why would they leave it open for thingiverse files to be printed on it?

>Material Colors – 10

That's a good selection. $50 for just one refill. No statement on how much that really is though. I'm sure this is where they make the most profit.




So, in my opinion this machine is selling itself to the uninformed wannabe tech-moms and dads. Those that think they are on the cutting edge but will most likely have this machine collecting dust in the back of the closet within a year.

It's sad to see 3D system offer a below average machine just to get their foot in the desktop printer world. I imagine it will always be this way with those that choose to build their own stuff verses those that would rather buy something for the novelty. I saw a comment on the Makerbot vs. Cube interview video that stated "This reminds me of Microsoft vs Linux." I was floored that Makerbot would be considered the "linux" in any situation. Yea the files are out there... but let's be serious. No one is going to make a Makerbot on their own. Those that are out there are never going to be as good as the kits they sell or the complete Replicator. This isn't the case for reprap. I'm sure there are dozens of printers making better parts and machines than the original reprap dev team..... AND THAT"S OKAY! We love to compete with each other! It's just good fun. Other reprap builders are content at their level and have no drive to improve the machine or their parts.

Back to the point.

It's really going to suck when 3D printing looks like crap because people are going to hate this Cube.

(Actually I don't care. In my mind RepRap will always be the best 3D tech we peasants will ever get. And it will always be better than any one company can put on a store shelf.)



John

a mil is 25 microns and also a thousanth of an inch. We typically print in layers of 300 microns but refer to that as .3mm Most industries who deal with close tolerance parts work in microns.

I don't know anything about the cube but you will find that the folks on this forum are mustly 'build it' types. As long as that makes sense we will continue to build vs buying. Remember Heathkit here in the US? You could build all sorts of electrical gadgets. Then the mass produced radios, TV and the like came along and you don't see Heathkit anymore or any company like it. We are all Heathkit lovers at heart, the main difference between then and now is the ability to endlessly discuss the same issues over and over on the intranet.

If this printer is a ready to run, no technoligy required, just print various ideas you come up product, then I think thats progress. It just won't ever be popular in this forum.

... same with Microsoft vs. Linux - Microsoft is more the type of 'buy, install and run', Linux was then more DIY and 'work in progress' ... nowadays it's changing slightly as Linux comes with easy to install packages (see last Ubuntu).

If someone is searching a turnkey-system, they'll be overwhelmed with the amount and diversity of RepRap-derivates ... so ready, 'user-friendly' machines have a growing market too ...

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

I can't find this "Makerbot vs. Cube interview at CES" anywhere on youtube, it's a vid right? and not just a blog with flames?

please drop link

@Asger: Here you go: [www.youtube.com] Bre even mentions RepRap! Hats off

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-Nudel
Blog with RepRap Comic

Yea he mentions reprap... Like his machine is the only one that can make other printers, which is false.

I think he's just used to people getting into his energy and just going with it. This time he was dealing with a true professional spin doctor that wasn't buying into his talk louder and faster gimmick.

Well, he did run the "open source"-routine, and I just find it funny he had to resort to mention RepRap to kind of settle the deal of "us vs them" / "open source vs traditional business". I for one, find it positive.

The 3DS strategy was quite obnoxious, imho. Fronting their new printer with a chain mail glove and other examples printed on entirely different kinds of machines? And the entire "sell your designs", is terrible old fashioned and limiting compared to thingiverse.

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-Nudel
Blog with RepRap Comic

One wonders if the Cubify material cartidges are "chipped" to prevent user refills?

is it me, or are there others who also want to kick here between here eyes?
i'm sorry, but if you first wish for a 3D printer is: it needs to be pink, then you don't need one.

people need to start making pink printrbots, and put little flags on the top and add my little pony stickers on them.
you could sell them for twice the price of a original one.

My prusa is pink. You got a problem with that?

not at all, i have to print most parts in pink for my girlfriend.
i don't like the trend that electronics now have to look cool rather than work

I'm no big fan of the cube, but it seems to be an alright printer. It looks like it works as well as the mk6 thing-o-matics, and for the price it will make a ok entry level printer for the technically challenged.

I am disappointed in the bland plastic shell, though. It looks like a piece of medical equipment.

No comment on the marketing hype...

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www.Fablicator.com

I have a big PINK printer too... it's awesome.

I do wonder if Botmill will start to sell the Cubify or a more grown up version of it? 3DS did make a few comments about having new printers for Botmill to be selling in this thread, but again they side-stepped the question about open-source and community support, so the answer is looking more like a NO then.

"The products you are asking for are in the works and we certainly wont be selling the Mendel for ever." - 3DSBotmill

They do seem to like advertising on this forum, I'm getting sick of seeing constant Botmill threads popping up in General. I would like to see both 3DS and Botmill continue down a open-source route of some description, but I'm waiting to see if Botmill drop all the Mendel style printers in favour of a closed source design, if that happens, and it looks very likely from all the issues they still seem to have, then they have no business being on this forum at all.

Judging by that video the Cubify firmware looks quite poor at the moment, very slow, it was going back and forth printing a small section on each side of that object, not much of an intelligent path going on there, it looks more like a very slow Inkjet printer, that's just going to waste time and produce less than quality results. And it's all closed off so you can't change things.

Ordering 5000 of anything from a 3D printer service is going to cost a lot more than soft tooling. - Why didn't anyone state that it's ok to tool up for 5000 of the same thing as the interviewer suggested, the whole point about personal 3D printing is the refine-design process and if you want 5000 slightly different or custom things, so many missed opportunities to get the correct message out there in that interview.

If you want colouring bool simplicity, buy a colouring book.

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[richrap.blogspot.com]

She annoyed quite a bit with her sales pitch.

The amount of times "colouring book simple" was mentioned was silly.

My biggest pet hate about that video was how she was saying (well at least how I took it) only print designs we have sanctioned or designs we create for you.
Its like saying buy this inkjet printer, but you'll only want to print stock images or images we create for you.
You buy a printer in order to print something you create. Yes sometimes you copy things, but you don't want to be locked down only copy.

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My Reprap blog

jds-reprap.blogspot.com

This kind of cross interview with 2 competitors is doomed to produce a high PR bullshit "mine is bigger" noise against useful information ratio.

Separately they might have been interesting. Well, my bet is only one of them could.

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Most of my technical comments should be correct, but is THIS one ?
Anyway, as a rule of thumb, always double check what people write.

Cathy Lewis was CEO of Desktop Factory, which was a startup developing a machine that used a halogen lamp to fuse layers of polymer powder onto a transfer roller. They took $500 deposits, and it was supposed to be delivered at $5K. They ran out of venture capital and Ms. Lewis wound the company up, returned the deposits, sold the IP to 3DS and went to work with them along with a number of her DF staff, with no outstanding DF debt. Really orderly, with no bitter and twisted creditors. l admire her, even if sales hyperbole is still sales hyperbole even when she delivers it. 3DS's founder, Charles Hull, is the guy who devised the .stl file format. In the '80s, and it's still the dominant model production description. We'd be a lot more fragmented and wouldn't have progressed this quickly without it.

I knew I recognized her!

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Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse

Quote
Nudel
The 3DS strategy was quite obnoxious, imho

I dont know why it was bad. They are showing off their strength which is the ability to print using other printers as well and they are offering a platform(hopefully reasonably integrated) where some one can decide where it is more efficient to print it themselves or get it from somewhere else.

I say this as a Prusa-Mendel owner, who runs it 20 hrs a week, who also discovered other tools along the way.
Reprap Prusa-Mendel got me started in CAD but since then I've used shapeways, CNC services from a fanuc operator.
It all depended on what was needed at what price....

I suspect Makerbot and Cubify will get many others started w/ CAD and thats a good thing....

The funny thing in the vid was that the cubify printer was printing, and the print warped off of the build plate. That's a bit too "colouring book simple" for me...

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[IkMaak.nl] A Maastricht based RepRap community.
Reprap Build Party's WorldWide
For more info: [ikmaak.nl]

Note that the cubify printer is still "Vaporhardware" :

We will be taking orders soon.

I believe that getting that kind of technology to a wide audience (people whom would complain if it doesn't work perfectly out of the box, IE the warping you mention is not acceptable) is still a very difficult goal (for the targeted price range).

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Most of my technical comments should be correct, but is THIS one ?
Anyway, as a rule of thumb, always double check what people write.

3d systems intentions could be more devious than they appear. think about it they make their big money selling prints to the people and big machines with a razor blade business models to businesses for huge profit margins it would be in their best interest to maintain the status quo. so what they could be doing is make a consumer level printer turn it in to a flop and generate bad publicity for personal printing. the collapse gets pumped through the conventional news feeds that sheeple watch, and in the end they believe that the technology isn't ready, and so no one would fund a new printer company or buy a printer. they will just remain consumers or outsource their prints to 3d systems.

So how come there has been nothing more written on this topic since March? Now the cube has been shipping for about 2 weeks - where are the hands on reviews ? I thought there would be dozen within a few days of it coming out. Searches with Google just produce a million copies of the same old marketing material from before it started shipping copied to every 3rd site on the internet. The only "review" with the machine I see is from "Cubifyfan". He writes prolificly, and seems to love it - maybe too much to be objective. Is he the only guy they've shipped to ?

The only other review I have seen is from an employee.
[www.deelip.com]

I've been little guy vs the billion dollar corporation taunting them by printing their demo models on my printer.
[plus.google.com]
[plus.google.com]

I can tell you first hand that the cube sucks. It's made to make a quick million and that's it. People are going to be very disappointed. 3d is a ruthless money hungry uncaring company. I know that is the description of most companies but it is 100x with 3d. All they do is buy companies to make money and put out these little scams now and then. If they had to earn their money the stock holders would be running for their lives.

So what specifically in your experience sucks about the Cube? First hand impressions have been a little tough to come by. Are there shortcomings to the machine itself, apart from proprietary money grubbing aspects like registration, charging for STL downloads and expensive filament?

How to cubify??

Hi,

I happened on this page searching for something else. I have a 3ds cube; I got it a couple of days ago. I previously had a makerbot from about two years ago (I'm not sure of the exact date/model, but it was before they started selling the "cupcake" or the automated print platform).

If anybody is watching, please send along any questions. A couple of quick thoughts about the cube:

(1) If you're a FLOSS type, you will immediately hate this thing. The first step is to "register" by entering codes back and forth with their website. I assume this has something to do with their plans to sell downloadable prints. I don't intend to do that, so no big deal. But it was definitely offensive.

(2) It uses wifi, but oddly it only supports either ad-hoc connections or push-button connections. That is, there's no way to enter your network. It's sort of immaterial as printing via usb stick is probably preferable. It's not clear how much local memory the machine has.

(3) The software is god-awful. Also, the firmware is god-awful.

(4) It will print arbitrary STL files. Actually, it uses its own format, but the software imports STL files. That seems useful, although the prints I have done so far have had awful tolerances. It's possible what this is because I had their software in inch mode while my models were metric. I'm planning on experimenting with that tomorrow.

(5) The absolutely best thing that I have seen so far is the print head. While I thought the makerbot was great, it had a real problem with not-extruding. This thing is stelllar at not extruding. The "demo" print, which was contained on the included usb stick, was a hollow chess rook with a lovely internal double-helix. I could never have gotten such clean standalone features on the makerbot.

(6) The one thing that really surprised me was that it includes glue, which is apparently required (haven't experimented). This is to solve the problem of initial layers not sticking to the build platform. You wipe glue over the build platform before it heats up. Then when the print is done, you put the build platform (plus your print) in water to dissolve the glue. This was a huge problem for me with the makerbot, even with a heated platform; while it seems like an inelegant solution, it is a solution and it does appear to work well.

Questions?

Cheers,

...

The "glue" is probably PVA, which some people here have reported works well in that application.

Their whole business model is antithetical to the RepRap movement and RepRap mission statement. It's a completely different approach to bringing personal 3d printers into the mainstream.

I think Cubify's business model would be less objectionable to people here if we saw indications that they intend to use their market share to improve the technology available at this price point. So far I haven't seen any indications that they intend to do this, and their method of charging extortionist prices for filament seems to point in the opposite direction. It's a business model proven by the 2d printer industry, but it's a business model consumers hate - it does not engender warm feelings between the customer and the company. If we look at Makerbot, a large part of their success is their fostering of a very active, very passionate customer base.

For 3d printing in general, I still think the costs and complexity are too high, reliability is too low, and finish quality is too low for mainstream acceptance. If we can get to the point where you can print a gearbox fully assembled and functional right off the printer (maybe after dissolving support material), then we may see wider adoption. As it is, right now we're in the "print the pieces and assemble manually" phase. This is not appealing to most consumers who expect perfectly polished pieces right off the printer with appearance quality that matches mass produced injection molded parts.

> The "glue" is probably PVA, which some people here have reported works well in that application.

Most likely. They refer to it as "magic cube glue". I think there's an MSDS on their website, although I wasn't able to locate the link just now. In any event, if I had heard of this I probably would have tried it with my old printer. I think it's a useful solution to the problem of initial layers not sticking.

> Their whole business model is antithetical to the RepRap movement and RepRap mission statement.
> It's a completely different approach to bringing personal 3d printers into the mainstream.

Well sure. It's like calling Theo de Raadt and telling him about Windows 8. I'm not trying to sell you on the thing, I just thought you might want to hear some first-hand details. I'm starting to think that you would hate it not just on principle, but on functionality as well.

Here's what you can control: (1) raft on/off; (2) supports on/off. That means no control over wall thickness or fill, or anything else. Fill is single-direction spaced about 5mm, regardless of geometry. This means some empty spots if you have a hole near a corner. So far this hasn't led to voids, but it does seem very sloppy. The print strategy is so absurd that I'm starting to think it must be on purpose - by which I mean if there are a lot of features, it will almost always rapid to the _farthest_ feature rather than the nearest feature. Similarly on solid layers it jumps around to fill in sections (shadows behind holes and the like). I think this ("fill an area") is something they cover in CS 101 these days.

> I still think the costs and complexity are too high, reliability is too low, and finish quality is too low
> for mainstream acceptance.

I think they're going to shoot themselves in the foot on finish quality in particular. I knew what to expect; but they do make it seem (on their website) like you're going to get an A1 finish on the parts. Cost/complexity are an open question, but the reason I bought it was for reliability - my old Makerbot required too much care and feeding. While a well-tuned and maintained reprap would probably beat the pants off the 3ds cube, I don't want to be in charge of tuning and maintenance - I just need parts. Time will tell on that.

So far I'm satisfied, it not ecstatic about it. It's functional. The tolerances are bad but seem to be consistent - meaning by offsetting my models I think I can get what I need out of it.

Cheers

Quote

I just thought you might want to hear some first-hand details

Yes, indeed. Thanks for your insights.

Now, can this bot be hacked? Like attaching a Gen7 electronics? After all, it propably uses stepper motors, too, right?

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY