newbie questions, lots of questions....

I'm looking for a way to make components for a device what reduces emissions and saves fuel in internal combustion engines
molding the end caps, cell manifolds and fluid distribution blocks was considered, but issues with sizing and prototype cycles have created a major cost problem.

I've been taking a long look at getting one of the Mendel models to make these parts with.
So as opened the title with I've got lots of questions.

The first and most important question is: Can I make liquid and gas tight components with one of these printers?

Most of my parts to not need a lot of thickness (I think the thickest piece at this time is 10mm), but I will need fairly large x and y dimensions (the small unit end cap is 145 mm x 170 mm X 5mm, but I hope to do one for 223mm x 250mm x 8mm).
How large a work area can the mendel handle? and if that space it too small, Is there a larger model that can?

These parts are not going to need extremely complex designs, but they will need precision in areas like the o-ring gasket grooves
So some parts will have some under cuts.
How large can the under cut be, before I have to start using support material?

Is there a dual head unit or tool changing option available to simplify laying down the support material?

How much heat can the abs take after the part is finished?
Is there a harder plastic that would be a better choice?

Can I stop the extruding process in the middle and embed parts (like say magnets, hose fittings or blind studs)?

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JohnS
Forging my body in the fires of my will

Hello, did I ask too many questions at once?

JohnS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm looking for a way to make components for a
> device what reduces emissions and saves fuel in
> internal combustion engines
> molding the end caps, cell manifolds and fluid
> distribution blocks was considered, but issues
> with sizing and prototype cycles have created a
> major cost problem.
>
> I've been taking a long look at getting one of the
> Mendel models to make these parts with.
> So as opened the title with I've got lots of
> questions.
>
> The first and most important question is: Can I
> make liquid and gas tight components with one of
> these printers?

Maybe. Liquid has been demonstrated before, and I assume gas is possible. That being said, if there is any pressure involved who knows. You can always coat parts in something like epoxy, though.


>
> Most of my parts to not need a lot of thickness (I
> think the thickest piece at this time is 10mm),
> but I will need fairly large x and y dimensions
> (the small unit end cap is 145 mm x 170 mm X 5mm,
> but I hope to do one for 223mm x 250mm x 8mm).
> How large a work area can the mendel handle? and
> if that space it too small, Is there a larger
> model that can?

The "official" Mendel is probably a tad too small. However, the plans are easily modified to make it larger with only changes to the rods. The hard part is going to be keeping everything from warping, and probably a very long build time. You will probably need to make a heated chamber for the size of build you need.


>
> These parts are not going to need extremely
> complex designs, but they will need precision in
> areas like the o-ring gasket grooves
> So some parts will have some under cuts.
> How large can the under cut be, before I have to
> start using support material?
>

anything that overhangs at more than a 45 deg angle will need support. These are by no means "precision" machines. If you are really good you can get +-.01 in tolerances on major dimensions. There is a lot of variability depending on what parts you build your Mendel with and how well it is made/calibrated.

> Is there a dual head unit or tool changing option
> available to simplify laying down the support
> material?

Not really. The only things I have seen are break away supports.


>
> How much heat can the abs take after the part is
> finished?
> Is there a harder plastic that would be a better
> choice?

look up abs material specs. The only thing usually printed is abs and pla


>
> Can I stop the extruding process in the middle and
> embed parts (like say magnets, hose fittings or
> blind studs)?

Sometimes. Depends a lot on the software.


Honestly, unless you have a LOT of time to mess with it and learn EVERYTHING, a Mendel is not going to do what you need.
If you can devote a solid 40hr week (or two) you might be able to do most of what you need, though.

A bfb 3000 is probably more in line with the attributes you are looking for.
[www.rapmanusa.com]

In the world of 3d printing, things can be good, cheap, or easy. Unfortunately, you can only pick two.

First thanks for the reply, I know that I'm sort of diving into the deep end.

Andrew Diehl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JohnS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > I've been taking a long look at getting one of the Mendel models to make these parts with.
> > So as opened the title with I've got lots of questions.
> >
> > The first and most important question is: Can I make liquid and gas tight components with one of
> > these printers?
>
> Maybe. Liquid has been demonstrated before, and I assume gas is possible. That being said, if there
> is any pressure involved who knows. You can always coat parts in something like epoxy, though.
The goal is to have enough flow that the gas production won't generate significant pressure. Liquid-tite is probably the all that the components really need.

> > Most of my parts to not need a lot of thickness (I think the thickest piece at this time is 10mm), but I will need fairly large x and y dimensions (the small unit end cap is 145 mm x 170 mm X 5mm, but I hope to do one for 223mm x 250mm x 8mm).
> > How large a work area can the mendel handle?
> > if that space it too small, Is there a larger
> > model that can?
>
> The "official" Mendel is probably a tad too small. However, the plans are easily modified to make it larger with only changes to the rods. The hard part is going to be keeping everything from warping, and probably a very long build time. You will probably need to make a heated chamber for the size of build you need.

Okay I was figuring that I would need a heated bed to prevent warping.. As for the parts taking a long time to build, if they take hours each that is fine compared to taking weeks to get through an outside vendors molding schedules.
besides if the mendel essentially make so many it is own unique parts, then I can always make more mendels to simultaneously make my components as time goes by.

Who might have plans or a how on enlarging the mendel's x and y axises?


> > These parts are not going to need extremely complex designs, but they will need precision in areas like the o-ring gasket grooves
> > So some parts will have some under cuts.
> > How large can the under cut be, before I have to start using support material?
> >
> anything that overhangs at more than a 45 deg angle will need support. These are by no means "precision" machines. If you are really good you can get +-.01 in tolerances on major dimensions. There is a lot of variability depending on what parts you build your Mendel with and how well it is made/calibrated.

I keep hearing support and have seen some videos with support materials.
If I print the bottom gasket groove and plate relief onto the raft, then stop and change to the abs will the mendel be able to properly register the abs printing over the support material??

> > Is there a dual head unit or tool changing option available to simplify laying down the support material?
>
> Not really. The only things I have seen are break away supports.
So you have never had to use any of these dissolving support material, I've seen mentioned?

> > How much heat can the abs take after the part is finished?
> > Is there a harder plastic that would be a better choice?
>
> look up abs material specs. The only thing usually
> printed is abs and pla

I did go and look at the abs that the mendel uses and it seems to be fine for the expected temperature ranges we will have when the unit operates.

> > Can I stop the extruding process in the middle and embed parts (like say magnets, hose fittings or blind studs)?
>
> Sometimes. Depends a lot on the software.
So the next layer after the printing is paused shouldn't have a bonding issue?

> Honestly, unless you have a LOT of time to mess with it and learn EVERYTHING, a Mendel is not going to do what you need. If you can devote a solid 40hr week (or two) you might be able to do most of what you need, though.

Time I can make to learn how to make all this work. $50,000 dollars for a test shot at the molder's I don't have.

> A bfb 3000 is probably more in line with the attributes you are looking for.
> [www.rapmanusa.com]

Thanks I'll be checking that out in a minute.

> In the world of 3d printing, things can be good, cheap, or easy. Unfortunately, you can only pick two.
Yeah, Unfortunately that is the same no matter what we do and it applies to our devices as well.
you can have cheap versions, you can have better versions (both in operation efficiency and durability), and you can have easy versions.
I'm interested in taking what I feel to be a quality first design and setup it up in every way.
Its not going to be easy, or I'd have already slapped on together.
Its not going to particularly cheap, but the goal it is to make every penny of cost worth it.
Its is going to be the best that I can build in the end.

Again thanks for the input, I'll have more questions soon I'm sure.

Really large parts can take up to a day.

I know of the existence of some of the dissolving support materials, but I haven't seen it's adoption into the community as of yet.


"If I print the bottom gasket groove and plate relief onto the raft, then stop and change to the abs will the mendel be able to properly register the abs printing over the support material?? "

Probably not. At BEST, with one nozzle, you can print each layer in a different material. Keep in mind changing filament is not always a simple task, and will need some 'purging' before printing pure new material.


To make bigger X and Y, literally just scale the lengths of the threaded rods and smooth rods. You may need to slightly alter the drive belt lengths as well, but that should be child's play. If you build a standard size Mendel, it will be a relatively small cost to re-size those rods once you get/see everything working.

You will be able to bond a layer onto a solid layer. Especially with a heated bed/chamber. The software in many cases is quite touchy though and may not let you restart correctly once you stop the print. Once you get to that point i'm sure some of the software whiz kids here will help you figure something out.

As an aside, you can always split a part into multiple pieces and glue them together.

See the Mendel Apollo blog entry from Ed Sells.

---

Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
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