Death of RepRap?!

Adrian Bowyer said that it is inevitable that RepRap would take over the whole 3D printer market because a self-replicating machine could replicate more machines and more and so forth. Also, open source development is evolution while closed source development is an evolutionary dead end.

However, I argue that his argument has a conclusion that is non-sequitor. I invite you to allow me to explain....

Economics will control whether or not people will do Reprap at all. If everyone abandons RepRap for economical reasons, then Bowyer's game theory of RepRap is false because the game never gets to progress any further. It is finished prematurely.

I was thinking about joining the RepRap project and building my own RepRap Huxley. I made a shopping list with prices;
1. Electronics, R2C2 = $520 USD + international airmail $75 = $595.
2. five NEMA 14 or 17 motors with shipping = $100
3. Single Extruder from Qu-Bd = $34 + priority mail = $46
4. Other odds and ends = $199
TOTAL = $940

Therefore, it takes $940 to build a RepRap Huxley for a teenager with no job.

However, if you have a job then your time is worth money. If you make $15 per hour, then building it would take, as a best case scenario if you were to get help while you build it at a RepRap building party, then you would spend about 8 hours building it. That's $120. If you work for $50 per hour, then it would cost you an opportunity cost of $400 to build it. Therefore, a RepRap's true cost is anywhere from $940 to $1340. Therefore, if commercially available ready built 3D printers are available for $940 to $1340, then people would stop building RepRaps. You can now get many, many choices of 3D printers for under $1340 now (check out the recent kickstarter projects, all funded, except the tangibot)..

RepRap's only chance to save itself is for the 3D powder printer to work or better yet, if RepRap has a sintering metal powder printer under it's belt. Then, the economics of getting a RepRap build would be better than buying a ready made 3D printer. If any of you know how to build a sintering metal powder 3D printer, let me know. I'll be more than happy to pay you to build one or at least buy a kit from you or back your project financially along with others on the forum. For example, if you need $1000 for your project, I'm sure if we all pitched in $10, you'll get your $1000 to buy materials to build a laser metal powder sintering 3D printer.

so, unless RepRap project makes a quantum leap forward in technology, then it's gonna die out. I hope not, but economics is rarely wrong.

You can build a machine for a LOT less than that. You chose the most expensive set of electronics that cost more than most complete machines. You can build a machine that prints the same as most others for $400 or less.

Azteeg = $70 - $109
Sanguinololu with drivers = $90
Printrboard = $109
Ramps with 5 drivers = $150

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2012 02:05AM by Sublime.

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FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

er... please tell me where to get the less expensive electronics. I checked 4 pages deep on Google, but found only the R2C2. Maybe my Google fu is a bit rusty....

I just found the printrboard for $120, but I still can't find the others you mentioned. Also, which one is already soldered and built. I hate soldering because I do a really poor job.

http://makemendel.com/electronics-parts/printrboard

check out [shop.seemecnc.com] or something like that. they have a 189$ machine, without electronics. you could also build your own stepper electronics for as cheap as 40$ (4 ramps boards) + arduino mega for 65$ does that seem more reasonable? look at digikey.com for other electronics.

If you can't build your own electronics then all this is a pointless rant.

as for time, i build parts while watching movies, some parts take 3-4hrs, but while i sleep.

I think the printrboard is fully assembled, any others?

... a point, mostly forgotten in the $-calculation, is the pure joy building something from scratch or out from a kit.

So, as long there are people around aming at this sort of 'entertainment', I don't see RepRap duying away

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

You can get all of them assembled from different people. Try Emaker shop, RepRapDiscount, Makergear, Lulzbot, Panucatt, plus many others as well as the for-sale section of the forums here.

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FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

While it's possible to self-source a 3D printer for around $400, I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone without prior experience trying it, unless you happen to live next door to a specialty hardware retailer like McMaster-Carr.Otherwise, multiple order with separate shipping charges will overwhelm that price point in short order. It is, IMHO, pretty easy to get in under US$600 with a kit, including a heated bed. Markerfarm is an example, but there are several others.

I'm keenly interested in where to find a Printrboard or Azteeg with stepper boards for $109, taking shipping charges into account.

@Elbot - I think your argument starts with a false assumption - that economics is the controlling factor - and I also think your conclusion does not imply the title of your post, i.e. that economic success of non-RepRap printers will lead to the demise of RepRap.

"Economics will control whether or not people will do Reprap at all." - I disagree. Many (the majority?) of people join the RepRap project in order to learn, build and develop, both their machines and themselves. If the sole purpose was to acquire a 3D printer then many could have bought a suitable pre-built solution for several years now.

A lot of people appear to confuse the difference between "product" and "project". RepRap is a project which is ongoing, has a lofty distant goal, and has a loose-nit community. It happens to produce objects, but it would be a mistake to call these products. Some companies produce 3D Printers, and some of these have roots in RepRap, and some of these may also remain open in the RepRap spirit, however the aim of these companies are, mostly, to sell printers, i.e. products.

Your argument makes sense only if you consider RepRap as a product. It fails to take into account non-tangible benefits such as learning, community participation, self development, and fun. Whilst there may be some pleasure from purchasing a 3D printer I think that going through the pain, and occasional joys, of making your own brings much more.

Therefore I don't believe everyone will abandon RepRap for economic reasons - only those who are seeking a product, and they will be best of served by commercial interests. Those who remain will continue to develop and innovate the RepRap project.

And I think your final sentence, "economics is rarely wrong", is quite incorrect. Economics is very often wrong because it doesn't take into account the irrationality, creativity and sheer bloodymindedness of mankind.

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garyhodgson.com/reprap | reprap.development-tracker.info | thingtracker.net

thats very nicely said Gary

@derevaun Sorry it is $119 for the printrboard and it only comes with drivers since they do not come off. [forums.reprap.org] the Azteeg price is right form the creator and does not include drivers but the cheap one plus 4 drivers @ $13ea = $122 . Yes plus delivery but small things do not cost much. You can get a complete ramps kit from RepRapDicount for $149 with 5 drivers, SDramps and wiring for $150 plus $12 fedex express delivery.

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FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

The opening post may not be accurate in every detail, but it brings up an interesting and valid topic: the idea to wide spread machines everywhere by replication has it's limits. The limit is, non-replicating mass-manufacturing is cheaper than all the non-replicatable parts/efforts one needs for making a replicating machine. And there are noticeable amounts of assembly work required.

I don't expect RepRap to die because of this. But I expect RepRap to be limited to the hobbyist market long term. The wide mass market will be held by some few mass-produced machines before too long. Similar to the 2D printer market.


Regarding electronics, googling for "reprap electronics" brings up this in place 2 and 4: [reprap.org] and [reprap.org] . I wonder what people watch out for if they don't find these (serious question).

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

And, again, a separate thread for things that were already discussed ad nauseam in other recent threads.
This is getting hard to follow

Hey, im from Argentina and im building a prusa mendel i2 for u$s500, including 1 abs spool (1kg).

Ebay, this forum and time are your friends.

Look for the same product from different shops so you can get a cheaper shipping rate, get the slowest shipping (much cheaper), Look around hardware stores to get offers and sales, etc etc etc.

If i can do it for u$s500 living in Argentina (having to buy abroad almost all the parts), you, unleast that you live in a third world country (like me), can do it for the same money or less.

orcinus, there is no obligation to read these threads. They're all marked with a proper title.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

You're missing the point.
I'm not whining about not wanting to read the content within or wanting it far from my sight.

I'm complaining about the orderliness and it being harder and harder to follow who said what about what and where

I.e. keeping things somewhat bound together might make it easier to follow (especially for people who visit the forum maybe once or twice a day instead of being there 24/7).

... this obvious 'chaos' is one of the most valid points the RepRap-community is built around ... hey think, most of the contributors are from countries/continents, where English isn't the common language!

But even this 'missing orderlines' is one of the strong points, causing the sirviving of RepRap over time and causing most evolution-forks ... simply, because some people didn't understand the common line, or by starting from a complete different viewpoint+background

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Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

garyhodgson, I think you're right. I once built a radio for fun but it would have been cheaper and easier to buy one made in China at the dollar store. So, it won't die out, but unless the reprap tech increases to include much more traditionally expensive technologies such as direct metal powder laser sintering then I don't think that Reprap printers will continue to hold the dominant market share in sheer numbers of operational printers anymore. I hope I am wrong and I'll financially back anyone who knows how to increase the Reprap tech to such a level. These are such exciting times we live in! Thanks for the links, guys, I'm gonna buy me some Reprap Huxley parts!

My school has a 3D printer.

Its $30,000

Mine is just about as good and was $500
There are probably some people on this forum who have built machines that outperform it.

Reprap already is cheaper than existing commercial printers.

-Nick

Elbot Wrote:
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> I was thinking about joining the RepRap project
> and building my own RepRap Huxley. I made a
> shopping list with prices;
> 1. Electronics, R2C2 = $520 USD + international
> airmail $75 = $595.
> 2. five NEMA 14 or 17 motors with shipping = $100

You may have a point somewhere, but these numbers are way off. The R2C2 kit is $480 and INCLUDES 5 stepper motors. Without checking the rest of the numbers, I saved you $140 already!

For bulky commodity items like power supplies, better to source locally than pay international shipping.

I think SeemeCnc have the cheapest printer on the market, and I recently saw a blog post about a self-build for $300. Lost the URL...

I believe our opensource software and hardware is enough to make RepRap development and innovation self-propelled. We are at a point of no return and reprap can sustain itself even during a crash. Reprap will never die.