Building a Kossel: Need advice on final parts

Alright, good to know I won't have to manually calibrate it all the time because auto calibrating works just fine.

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Riggi
Oh wow I was expecting it to take a while, but not about 2 years. You must've quite the perseverence to be able to stay interested in your project for so long. How did you experience calibrating your machine? Was it a pain in the ass? A friend of mine isn't convinced of my choice to build a Delta printer because he believes calibrating the printer will be a nightmare and you'll have to do it frequently. I know calibrating a Delta printer is more difficult compared to others (say a cartesian) but I don't think it's that bad as long as you build it well and have a sturdy frame.

Well if you remove the time I was waiting for parts, its not that long to build , maybe a month or 2 ... depend on how much hour you can put in it everyday... example my mitter saw was not doing 60 degree so I had to bolts my part to a sled and use the table top, this took more time because of the alignment of the part. Now I got a new mitter that do 60 degree, so im sure I can cut all parts in couple hour only.

About calibration I use dc42 webpage calculator and a piece of paper,I plan to use a sensor to do the auto calibration but after doing it manually last march I did not have to do it again and its still perfectly fine even after I move the printer a couple time. I guess its depend if your frame is solid and if you tinker with the head/bed a lot... if you remove them you have to recalibrate. But for me I decide to lets the sensor go and if needed do it manually ( its not that long with the calculator).

One more thing about calibration if you chose the right firmware you will have a easier time.. reprap firmware is the key word here.. Look at all the post in this forum where ppl have hard time with calibration guess what.. all marlin/repetier ppl... none really have a hard time calibrate with reprap firmware manually with the web calculator or auto with a sensor.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2017 07:27PM by GroupB.

I agree that getting perfect calibration over the entire bed of a large printer is only possible if the geometry is very accurate. However, mesh bed compensation can be used to deal with the residual height errors after auto calibration. But it's even more important to have a good Z probe in this case, because when using mesh bed compensation, it's not practical to correct for varying trigger height. The IR sensor isn't ideal in this respect.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Ah I see. Kinda a shame that it had to take that long then, when now you could build it way faster. I was about to go for the RepRap firmware, as that's what runs on the Duet anyways, so it's good to hear the RepRap firmware works great.

It's interesting to hear that the IR sensor isn't ideal whenever you want to use mesh bed compensation. I didn't even know what the mesh bed compensation was until now. How good does the mesh bed compensation work and if you want to use the mesh bed compensation, what Z probe would you recommend, the piezo probe?

Well the piezo probe is currently under development but it does work, and you can make one up if you wish (the details are in my sig), however if you're starting off its less complexity (you'll have plenty to think about) to use something tried and tested and the IR probe is certainly that. Effector tilt can be either a big headache or with a very well built printer really not much of a problem at all. You can mitigate for it by placing the IR probe very close to the nozzle (using silicone covers on the hotend, and some kapton tape/fibre matting etc.. to shield it from the heat), and raising up the hot end so just the heater block and probe hang down below it. These both reduce the magnitude of any effector tilt you might have.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

[www.thingiverse.com]

Works quite well for me.

Hmm I see. I'll consider both the options. Thanks!

To be clear, the IR probe works well with mesh bed levelling if you have an accurate build with very low effector tilt and you have a compatible bed surface.

Aside from the piezo sensor, the other popular option is force sensitive resistors under the bed supports.

My delta has a 280mm diameter printable area, and I get good results using the IR sensor for auto calibration and no mesh bed levelling.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Oh I haven't heard from these force sensitive resistors located under the bed supports yet. Guess I have some googling to do!

And maybe the IR probe will work after all then. I guess it'll depend on what kind of frame I'll use, which depends on how much of my budget I'll have left. Thanks!

You can build most of it but don't make an effector or bed supports until you've chosen a sensor.

Or go hard-core and manually calibrate it and then add a sensor later if you want.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2017 09:28AM by DjDemonD.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

I think I'll rather spare me the trouble of manually calibrating it and go for a sensor instead. Why should you wait with the effector/bed support until you've chosen a sensor? I suppose it is because you need to provide some space for the sensor so that it can be mounted on top of the effector?

Yes the sensor will normally fit to the effector. Fsrs sit inside the bed supports.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Does that mean there are different effector designs for the different kind of sensors or are they like modular?

Have a nose about on thingiverse.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Alright I'll take a look around, thanks!

Once you have a working printer, it's easy to print a new effector if you want to try a different sort of Z probe. I am on my third effector design.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2017 03:54PM by dc42.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Yeah exactly. I'm sure I'll be messing around with everything when I have the printer up and running.

Today I did notice that the Duet board I was looking at, was actually a Duet 0.85 and not a Duet Wifi. The Duet Wifi is a lot more expensive but I think it's worth it to go for the Wifi over the 0.85, unless maybe I try to go for a Duet 0.85 along with a Wifi router (as stated here [blog.think3dprint3d.com]). I've also been checking the shipping costs for all the parts. The shipping costs for the aluminium extrusions are also so much higher than I expected. Right now I've actually made a new list for the XL (750 x 360 mm) instead of the 1000 x 500 mm I was looking at. The current price is 563,69 EUR (without fans, 3D printed parts or CNC-ed parts, Robotdigg shippings costs and maybe still missing some bolts/screws/nuts). I think I might have to make some more compromises to get the price lower.

Current list of "choices" I've made:

• E3D V6 Hotend
• Titan Extruder
• 2020 XL Aluminium frame from Robotdigg (750 x 360 mm)
• Duet Wifi
• Nema 17 0.9° Steppers
• Traxxas rods
• V-Rollers (Still have to recheck if these are actually compatible with the Robotdigg aluminium extrusions)
• Robotdigg's 2020 metal corners

What do you guys think? Should I stick with the Duet Wifi or should I grab a Duet 0.85 instead with a wireless router? Should I make any changes to the current list?

I'd say when it comes to the controller I love my Duetwifi but I set out to make a no-expense-spared machine, after having a fairly do-it-all-on-the-cheap attitude before that. The TMC drivers on the duetwifi are really good, motor noise is practically zero, and accuracy can't be faulted. But you could buy the 0.85 + router (or just plug a cable into it - indeed the next Duet is likely to be like the wifi but with an ethernet port or swappable module or maybe even both wiif&cable) and then very easily upgrade your board later selling the 0.85 board or making it into another printer - pick one up second hand - there must be people who've upgraded to the wifi and have one they'd rather turn into cash, then you won't lose anything when you offload it.

My only reservation when recommending duetwifi to newcomers is that its state-of-the-art but has a price tag to match and you just can't be sure you'll love 3D printing or be patient enough for it. This is why ramps/mega is popular, its cheap and it manages to get you 80% of the way there, the remaining 20% costs 7 times as much, but that's life isn't it?

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Get linear rails instead of rollers, Robotdigg ones are cheap and good (enough).

+1 for rails.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

I'm pretty sure that I'll be using my 3D printer a lot, as I'm already printing at friends or at school quite often so that doesn't worry me. It's mainly just being on a tighter budget. Also, where do you think I'd find a second hand Duet board easily?

And alright I'll go for some rails instead. Thanks!

Don't know about a second hand duet 0.85, I looked on ebay earlier as I fancied one myself, ask on this forum I suppose. I'll let you have the first one

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Haha alright, I'll look a bit around in a bit Thanks!

The main diff between duet .85 and the wifi version is not the addition of wifi.. its the driver... you are no longer stuck on 1/16. That the main reason I chose radds last year vs 1/16 duet. Any controller can be made wifi with octoprint. so dont think of the duet wifi as a 0.85 with only a wifi add to it. Off course you can pay less for a 0.85 and add a raspberry pie (35$ us) and maybe even wire 4 or 5 new driver like raps128 (16$ us each) but that will cost the same or even more than the duet wifi.

if you chose .9 stepper you can still have a good enough resolution with 1/16 but the noise will still be much more than 1/32 ,1/64,1/128 or 1/256 of the wifi

Your not able to order V-slot extrusion locally to reduce the shipping cost maybe even cut them close enough for you to further remove the extra cost of long box?

For extrusion the less time they spend in mail and the less travel they do the best, you don't want bend extrusion. I was lucky I guess there was a seller in canada 45 minute from my house with pretty decent price and had all the size.

If you are really on tight budget I say cut corner somewhere else, not on electronic and rails system, extruder and the head.. start with a printed extruder ( still use a Airstripper with a mk8 drive gear from robotdigg) and a clone head, I use one and make pretty good print but if you do make sure to replace the thermistor by the one robotdigg sell, clone one are garbage and not 3950 and also use the mk8 .4 nozzle they sell its a good quality one, all shinny inside and I recommend they all metal push fit they are good. the clone are like a hybrid between e3d lite and metal , they have the tube going into that stop at the base of the heatsink and the rest is metal, I have no trouble printing pla or ngen/tpe at 240C with them. All I did was to polish the thermal tube a little, they also sell full metal thermal if needed, I got a couple but never used them.

Quote
Riggi
Yeah exactly. I'm sure I'll be messing around with everything when I have the printer up and running.

Today I did notice that the Duet board I was looking at, was actually a Duet 0.85 and not a Duet Wifi. The Duet Wifi is a lot more expensive but I think it's worth it to go for the Wifi over the 0.85, unless maybe I try to go for a Duet 0.85 along with a Wifi router (as stated here [blog.think3dprint3d.com]). I've also been checking the shipping costs for all the parts. The shipping costs for the aluminium extrusions are also so much higher than I expected. Right now I've actually made a new list for the XL (750 x 360 mm) instead of the 1000 x 500 mm I was looking at. The current price is 563,69 EUR (without fans, 3D printed parts or CNC-ed parts, Robotdigg shippings costs and maybe still missing some bolts/screws/nuts). I think I might have to make some more compromises to get the price lower.

Current list of "choices" I've made:

• E3D V6 Hotend
• Titan Extruder
• 2020 XL Aluminium frame from Robotdigg (750 x 360 mm)
• Duet Wifi
• Nema 17 0.9° Steppers
• Traxxas rods
• V-Rollers (Still have to recheck if these are actually compatible with the Robotdigg aluminium extrusions)
• Robotdigg's 2020 metal corners

What do you guys think? Should I stick with the Duet Wifi or should I grab a Duet 0.85 instead with a wireless router? Should I make any changes to the current list?

A couple of suggestions:

- check the price of buying the extrusions from Motedis in Germany instead of from Robotdigg
- consider using the E3D Lite hot end. As well as costing less, it's less fussy about the retraction amount than the all metal version. It's rated at 245C maximum so you can still print most common filaments with it.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Don't get the Extrusions from Robotdigg they are good but the shipping will kill you and you will get stung for import Duty into the EU go to Motedis They will work out much cheaper for you they are based in south Germany so shipping will be much less.

However if you want to use rollers then you should consider OpenBuilds extrusions for the vertical elements along with there Vee Wheels you can get them at Ooznest (There may be other dealers in Mainland EU)

would still recommend the Robotdigg corners tho

HTH Doug

Quote
Riggi
Yeah exactly. I'm sure I'll be messing around with everything when I have the printer up and running.

Today I did notice that the Duet board I was looking at, was actually a Duet 0.85 and not a Duet Wifi. The Duet Wifi is a lot more expensive but I think it's worth it to go for the Wifi over the 0.85, unless maybe I try to go for a Duet 0.85 along with a Wifi router (as stated here [blog.think3dprint3d.com]). I've also been checking the shipping costs for all the parts. The shipping costs for the aluminium extrusions are also so much higher than I expected. Right now I've actually made a new list for the XL (750 x 360 mm) instead of the 1000 x 500 mm I was looking at. The current price is 563,69 EUR (without fans, 3D printed parts or CNC-ed parts, Robotdigg shippings costs and maybe still missing some bolts/screws/nuts). I think I might have to make some more compromises to get the price lower.

Current list of "choices" I've made:

• E3D V6 Hotend
• Titan Extruder
• 2020 XL Aluminium frame from Robotdigg (750 x 360 mm)
• Duet Wifi
• Nema 17 0.9° Steppers
• Traxxas rods
• V-Rollers (Still have to recheck if these are actually compatible with the Robotdigg aluminium extrusions)
• Robotdigg's 2020 metal corners

What do you guys think? Should I stick with the Duet Wifi or should I grab a Duet 0.85 instead with a wireless router? Should I make any changes to the current list?

Hmm, I didn't expect the noise difference would be that big. Maybe I should stick with a Duet WiFi anyways then and indeed compromise on other parts.

I'm kinda wary of using a clone head over an E3D V6 because I have heard about some issues people have with clone E3D V6'. Maybe I should settle for a E3D Lite then instead. I actually thought an E3D Lite could only print PLA but apparently it can also print ABS. I don't think I'll be printing in any "exotic" filaments anytime soon anyways so maybe it's better to go for a Lite instead. I'll also check out some printed extruders I could use perhaps.

And apparently I didn't seem to check Motedis for prices. The prices there are more do-able. I did check out Ooznest but the prices there too high, along with the shipping costs. I guess I'll be looking for parts from Motedis I guess!

Also, what linear rails would you guys recommend from Robotdigg? They have plenty of rails really. I've found these though (which are classified for a Kossel XL [www.robotdigg.com]) but they are a bit expensive I think?

Thanks for the suggestions!

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2017 06:41AM by Riggi.

why you will stay with linear robotdigg if you can buy better from igus
[www.igus.fr]

it will be better build quality,with no duty taxes and fast delivering ..and less expansive!!
TW-04-12-LLZ cost 10,5e for one unit

Yeah I've taken a look at them but not all of the rails are "less expensive" though. I'm not sure those T-Low-profile guides will actually fit, considering the carriages sizes (would have to check the drawings of them to be sure). I was looking around and found these T-Automatics on their website, and they are like 54,60 euros for a single rail and carriage. It really depends which one you pick.

Finally I haven't seen a lot of people use the Igus rails. Even after a quick google search, I didn't find that many results.

yes it fit i have checked it s not for nothing if i had them on my list!
for carriage it s compatible with 20*15mm that you can find on aliexpress
the size is identical with robodig or hiwin