Software Project (Prusa Mendal)

Hi guys just about to start my project and have just selected my software I am going to use,

Firmware – Sprinter
Skein Software – SFACT
Host – Pronterface

I am going to be using windows 32bit on XP, We will be using a USB to transfer the G-Codes and the board selected Is Arduino board/ RAMPs, we are building the Prusa Mendal

If anyone could give me any heads up before we start it would be much appreciated, also if anyone has a comparison of software diagram or information on the comparison of the software and could share this information again it would be much appreciated.

Thank you for your time

Excellent choice, that is the same software I'm running at the moment, and it works perfectly. There are also a lot of people using it, so it's easier to get help if you're stuck.

Best of luck with your build!

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-Nudel
Blog with RepRap Comic

Great thanks, i have also just been told to check out ReplicatorG, can your spread any light on the ReplicatorG?

Again Thanks for your time

In short, ReplicatorG is for makerbots, you understand you can make it work with other printers but it requires a bit of hacking. Some people really like the interface, I haven't used it much but personally don't care for it. You can rotate and scale stl files in the program.

Pronterface on the other hand is made with the reprap project and electronics in mind, and together with sfact it Just Works(TM). I really like the simple interface, and the gcode viewer. You can customize the interface and add your own custom gcode buttons if you so please. It comes with tools for making build plates (plater.py).

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-Nudel
Blog with RepRap Comic

Pronterface works well enough, but I'm partial to Replicatorg for a variety of reasons:

• I find Pronterface's interface rather clunky. All the buttons are squished together, and the menus are a mess. Opening the SFACT quick settings sheet, for example, creates a huge window whose title bar is occluded by the systemwide menu bar, so it can’t be moved.
• On Mac OS X, the fact that Pronterface is written in Python and opened from the command-line means that launching it opens Terminal and creates an instance of the Python runtime that shows up in the Dock. This is irritating to UI geeks such as myself.
• I don’t like Pronterface's lack of integrated profile and STL management features. Being able to select profiles and perform rudimentary edits on the loaded STL (such as centering or resizing it) from within the app itself is very handy.
• When my computer’s CPU use is high, pronterface lags while sending commands to my printer. Never happens with Replicatorg.
• Pronterface is a crash-a-holic. Blows up at least once a day for me. Thankfully, never during a print.

I think a lot of my grievances stem from the fact that Pronterface isn't well optimized of integrated with Mac OS X. But that's my platform of choice, so I've found Replicatorg to be a better solution for me. There are only a few downsides that I've encountered:

• You can't use SFACT. Not a problem for me since I prefer the regular Skeinforge anyway.
• You can't easily upgrade to new versions of Skeinforge. The latest one that Replicatorg supports is Skeinforge-40.
• You can't see each a graphical representation of each layer and where the extruder is during a print. However, you can see this before a print by using the Skeinlayer plugin.
• Support for Marlin is experimental and a little buggy. It works almost all the time, but I had to lower the baud rate to 115200. Sprinter works perfectly though.

If you're interested in trying out Replicatorg, it will pretty much Just Work™ once you replace the reprap.xml file in the machines directory with the one found here: [www.thingiverse.com]

For new repraps (and beginner builders) there is little (if anything) that beats the combo of pronterface+sfact in terms of sheer quality prints from the get go. Calibrate e_steps and you're good to go. There is also a precompiled pronterface with built in sfact which makes it even simpler to get going.

I had better prints with that combo on my three days old prusa than on my one year old sells with a heavily tweaked and modified skeinforge. Although much of it is due to mechanical superiority, it still baffles me. The work done on sfact is simply astounding (thanks to action68!), so I see no reason at all to recommend new members of the community to try and tame the skeinforge beast.

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-Nudel
Blog with RepRap Comic

I agree with Pointedstick. I did recommend SFact to newbies for a while until all their questions started becoming how to do things that SFact won't do or is a Bug in SFact because the Maintainer does not use that feature. Plus I am a Teacup user and Sfact has bugs relating to Relative extrusion. I also hate communication errors and the only way around that for me is to use a serial terminal to send the data, Repsanpper, ReplicatorG and Pronterface all crash and give me failed builds. Serial terminal has printed 15lbs (1.5kg) of PLA without any issues. (actually pronterface while testing usually crashed while sitting idle).


Before the words Absolute is more precise come out of someones fingers, I would ask how is having some extrusions being dropped by by Relative less precise than extra material every other extrusion by Absolute. Both have issues, I prefer a tiny bit less material where the move is too small rather than more the move after causing a blob.

So my recommendation is take the dive into Skeinforge and not SFact. You may rebuild your machine thirty times trying to fix something and the problem has been SFact the whole time and you have no idea.

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FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

I find many questions about sfact and the trouble answering them, come from things we have learnt (some might call it "bad" habits) from using skeinforge. They are basically the same, sfact have "just" simplified a lot of settings, and though simpler it does take time to get accustomed to.

After having used skeinforge for at least 6 months, and then switching to sfact two months ago, I have yet to find something I needed to tweak I couldn't do in both. Though the place or way to tweak it might have been different, it has always been possible. The supposed lack of some option has also more than once proven to be fixed mechanically. And while it might be possible to somewhat counter some mechanical shortcomings in software, it doesn't remove the problem (oozebane anyone?), and thus - in my personal opinion - shouldn't even be an option in the software. Mind you I am not using the latest sfact version on git, which tend to be a bit experimental, but rather a few weeks older version which has been perfectly stable for me.

There are also other alternatives like slic3r, which is blistering fast. It slices a rod clamp in a couple of seconds, and a prusa x end idler in less than 20! I have yet to run the gcode through the printer, but it's very promising. And there are also alternative host softwares, like Repetier-Host, which have a range of great features.

But this comes down to personal preference I guess. I suggest the topicstarter tries different software packages and figures out what he likes the most. A lot of people like replicatorg, and skeinforge is capable of producing most excellent gcode, no doubt about that.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2011 02:03PM by Nudel.

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-Nudel
Blog with RepRap Comic

I don't think SFACT is a bad piece of software, but my troubles began when I wanted to start tweaking. Right out of the gate, I had pretty good prints, but one consistent problem was that infill was too sparse. changing any of the values that seemed related had no effect at all, and I found that the more I tweaked, the worse my prints became, but in ways that didn't make sense to me. For all the issues I tried to address, none of the values I changed seemed to have the effect I was expecting. I think this is because SFACT tries to be smart by calculating things for you, but in order for this to work, it has to be smart enough that you don't even need to delve into the guts at all. Once I started to do this and manually change values in profiles, it sort of started to break down. And then I realized that I was doing with SFACT exactly what I had been doing with regular Skeinforge—manually editing text files to change individual values and find out what effect they had on print quality. At that point, I decided that Skeinforge's predictability was the better deal for me.

In the end, SFACT is an abstraction on top of Skeinforge, and the two softwares are maintained by different people. I deal with this situation in my job every day as we wrap Unix and Perl scripts with bad interfaces in other Unix and Perl scripts that we give better interfaces, and on and on until something breaks or behaves inconsistently and then we have to burrow down and figure out what broke where, what changed, what started expecting a different value, which program switched to a different database format, etc. I understand the motivation, but the pain is just never worth it. If we desire a simpler Skeinforge, then we need to create a simpler Skeinforge.

Well I am getting quite disillusioned with the whole 3D printing thing. I have had my Prussa built since August and haven't managed to print anything. The main problem is all this software quite simply doesn't work. I am on a Mac 10.6.8 and anything written in Python is about as frustrating as those old text based adventure games. You know, missing file you need to install X, so you download X and have to get installer Y to install it. Installer Y won't run because you haven't got module Z and so on. So you do all that and then the dam thing still won't run because it is complaining about another file. Eventually you get to a point that even though you have installed the missing file (Like WX) it still complains you haven't got it.
ReplacatorG I have been trying since release 6, we are now on release 26 and the thing still doesn't work, although each feature has worked in a past release, just not all together. The latest try, it has taken over an hour to generate the code for the hexagon test piece and it is still going, (I think it has crashed as usual).
RepSnapper cashes when ever I try and connect my machine to it, unless I run it through the command line interface when it won't crash but won't connect either.
Skeinforge has so many options that I simply don't understand and tends to hang.

So I guess that the several hundred pounds I have spent on the machine and the many many hours I have spent on rubbish software that won't work, is all down the drain.

This is the biggest aspect limiting the take up of 3D printing and I am now at the stage where I would even pay for working software, but only with a money back guarantee if it didn't work.

Grumpy Mike Wrote:
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> So I guess that the several hundred pounds I have
> spent on the machine and the many many hours I
> have spent on rubbish software that won't work, is
> all down the drain.

Only if you give up...

I suggest you open up a new topic in the main forum, with a clear title containing like "Mac problem", and hopefully someone who have made it work in a similar configuration will help.

Otherwise, maybe try to find a reprap user group near you or even a hackerspace, fablab... Sometimes physical presence is better for helping.

I also recommend trying to get help in the Reprap IRC channel. If you're not familiar with IRC, you can use the browser based interface.

I have been using Pronterface on a Mac 10.5.8 successfully although when I last upgraded to the new version, I tried to go through the install procedure and I was not successful. So I just ran it anyway it seems to work even though it gives some error messages on the console when I quit it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2011 05:06PM by brnrd.

Quote
although when I last upgraded to the new version, I tried to go through the install procedure and I was not successful. So I just ran it anyway it seems to work

That is exactly what I mean, only in my case it didn't work.

It seems to me that no one is actually interested in getting anything that is stable, they are all interested in putting yet more incomprehensible, poorly documented twiddles, on the Gothic structure.

I am not exactly a novice, having worked 45 years in electronics and computing, yet I find this totally confusing. Nothing I try actually works. From what I read the method is just to keep plugging away at random things and hope one time you stumble across something that will work.

Grumpy Mike Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> That is exactly what I mean, only in my case it
> didn't work.
>
> It seems to me that no one is actually interested
> in getting anything that is stable, they are all
> interested in putting yet more incomprehensible,
> poorly documented twiddles, on the Gothic
> structure.
>
> I am not exactly a novice, having worked 45 years
> in electronics and computing, yet I find this
> totally confusing. Nothing I try actually works.
> From what I read the method is just to keep
> plugging away at random things and hope one time
> you stumble across something that will work.

I think we're all very interested in getting stable setups. I sure am! Just because we're not there yet, doesn't mean that nobody cares. The RepRap community is made up of hackers and hobbyists. It can be confusing, and since we're all going in our separate directions, there's no central authority to direct people toward a specific purpose. If you want a printer first and a project second, I really recommend A Thing-O-Matic, Ultimaker, Mosaic, RapMan, Up! or one of the other commercial printers. I started with a Thing-O-Matic and loved it; it was my gateway drug, so to speak. A RepRap is always going to be a project made up of pieces designed and maintained by passionate individuals, with varying amounts of polish. Depending on your perspective, that's its biggest upside, or its worst drawback. I love it, but you have to love it for what it is. If you don't like something, help us fix it! If the broken thing isn't your area of expertise, we'd be more than happy to help you learn, or else a commercial printer might work out better for your needs.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2011 09:28PM by Pointedstick.

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If you want a printer first and a project second, I really recommend A Thing-O-Matic, Ultimaker, Mosaic, RapMan, Up! or one of the other commercial printers.

But I want to use a Mac so won't I have the same problem? Anyway I did want to make something myself and I could not afford the commercial stuff.
When I failed to get the applications that send Gcode to the RepRap I wrote my own in Processing, doesn't that tell you something? I am capable of writing a controller but not capable of getting anything pre written to work.

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It can be confusing, and since we're all going in our separate directions,

That also has to tell you that not many other people find this stuff works either and have to write their own like I did. However, a solid model to Gcode code is beyond me and the time I can spend on this.

I did look at this project two years ago and concluded that it was not mature enough to consider. The banks of RepRap machines at this years Maker Fair convinced me that the project had matured. Alas I was wrong. I was fooled into thinking that Adrian's mini extruder could extrude ABS - it can't. I was fooled into thinking I could get 1.7mm PLA, every one has it but it is never in stock, except for one place where it is twice the price. Even then Adrian's mini extruder hardly performs at all. And I was fooled into thinking that there was a code you could run on a Mac.

Those that have got it to run on a Mac are very lucky, there must be something about their machine that is different. My latest attempts at installing Pronterface have now resulted in me getting an "unexpected quit" message every time I close a Processing app! It is Python that is not stable, I think no amount of tinkering with it will make it so. It is already a Tower of Babel despite it being one language.

The Wiki pages are a mess with old and deprecated information, solid information and reports on experiments, all receiving equal predominance.

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is > all down the drain. Only if you give up...

Even if I do not give up then the last three months are down the drain anyway because I have got no further with it.

I think I might just put it away in a cupboard for another two years and see if the fabled maturity apperes, although I do feel let down by the community and the project.
[ / rant]

@ Grumpy MIke

I am not a programmer in any way shape or form. I switched from Windows 7 to Ubuntu 1 year ago and had no command line experience. I started building my RepRap 8 months ago and the software was a huge learning curve but it all does work with the exception of a few bugs in the newest alpha releases.

And if the software does not work on a Mac maybe you should fix it instead of complaining about the work done by others. If everyone just complained this project wouldn't even exist. It takes the efforts of the users to make it better and not just complain they did not get exactly what they wanted for free. My experience with Mac users is they bought a Mac so they would not have the issues found with a Windows machine and they were not willing to put in the effort to install Linux. They would rather spend ten times more money (= more effort than installing Linux) to get what they expect to be perfect (has its flaws too). I would expect those same people to have purchased an Up.

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FFF Settings Calculator	Gcode post processors	Geometric Object Deposition Tool Blog
Tantillus.org	Mini Printable Lathe	How NOT to install a Pololu driver

Lighten up Grumpy Mike. Perhaps you'd have better success and more fun if you weren't so grumpy.

Please go on the IRC and ask for help there since you seem to have different issues with SW and HW. There's no point in complaining here or to the developers who are just giving their own time because they enjoy doing it. As far as I know, all the SW that you've tried to use are free, which means they didn't get any money for providing it to you.

BTW, one alternative as a last resort is to run Windows on your Mac either under VM Ware or Parallel or even in bootcamp. This has also worked for me in the past although I haven't tried it since Pronterface works for me.

@Sublime
Not all of us can be painted with that broad a stroke. I'm a Mac user and I found Pronterface and Replicatorg to work just fine with minimal setup. I did have to force Python to 32-bit mode to get Pronterface to work, but that was the only really thing that was necessary. Replicatorg took a few hours of hacking and experimentation with the reprap.xml file, but it's unsupported and experimental so you can't really complain about that.


@ Grumpy Mike
if you want to get your RepRap working, we'd all be happy to help. But so far you've just done a lot of complaining, which tends to turn people off rather than make them want to help you. Let's go one step at a time and I bet we can get your machine printing. I'm a Mac user whose TOM and Prusa work just fine with his computer, so this stuff is definitely possible to get working. It sounds like Pronterface isn't working on your Mac; how are you opening it and what's the error you get?

I can say that Replicator G, pronterface et all works perfectly fine on my two Macs (one running Lion and one Snow Leopard)...My Prusa isn't printing yet (still building the extruder) but the RAMPS board talks perfectly fine to either computer I have tried as does my MakerBot Thing-O-Matic.

Perhaps it's Grumpy Mike's Mac that is different?

Slamming a community of people & their free efforts while calling the whole project immature isn't going to win many friends...regardless of how many years you worked in "electronics and computing".

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2011 04:21PM by johnbiehler.

That the ticket.
I tried a few other pieces of firm and software,
Found this combo the best.
I was using it with regular skienforge, got somewhere but once i got the sfact plugin going on pronterface im up and running.
No problems at all. No crashing which i never had before with PF with skien, but sface brought the speed and quality.
Yes there are gripes.
It hijacks the temp, if you set it with the set temp setting in pronterface, that the print temp no matter what skien wanted.
I also have to move the stl file to the print surface in REPG because pronterface cant.
But thats a minor thing.
It is clunky but its free and works.
This is all so amazing, what we are doing here.
Open source 3d printing.
Wrap your head around that.

@grumpy mike
Yes there are many issue with the software chain used.
I think that is a product of the open source method of development.
We stand on the shoulders of giants here.
People before us, came and laid the foundation, for no other reason than to share their knowledge and skills.
More people came and found that this is something cool, but there were and always be things that people want to change to suit there needs.
Someone wasnt happy with what was available so they branched, found ways to improve and make things better.
And then there are us, here now. With so many choices in firmware to host software to even the 3d modeler, its easy to get over whelmed.
But dont.
Open source means your willing to put some leg work into getting it all going.
I have spent sleepless nights researching everything out there.
You will only fail if you give up.
You will find what you need and once you find that perfect combo of software and firmware she will sing for you. (gets *almost* annoying!)
I recommend uninstalling all the software you have installed.
There is an order to installing python properly, there needs to be framework software first.
I messed that up the first try, and couldnt get any python base gcode.
Uninstalled everything and found that i installed a few packages in the wrong order.
Works now. the wiki had the page i followed on installing python. Do a quick search.
Its in the details here. Open source is all about the small detail that makes this movement what it is.
If you want it to just work, i recommend the $30,000 printers that are commercially supported.
Best part there is you can yell at them and the are paid to help no matter what, (microsoft has heard a lot from me lol!)
But here, your attitude will only get you no where and fast.
Thats not to say we wont help but show patience with us and we will return that patience to you.

/rant
whew.
well im winded.

To those giants i mentioned earlier, THANK YOU!!!
All of us are grateful for the hard work you have put in to these projects!
You have enabled some incredible things here.
Happy printing
-Erik