help... Where to start?

I've love this concept. So after reading alot in here, I deciced I want one of these.

But I have tons os doughts.

First: Witch model is the best? newest/stable, mendel right? there is a V2, right? Witch is the most precise? What do you recomend?

I've read the BOM and i'm lost... lots of parts from very different supplyers, and lots of parts with no link to supplyer.
How in the hell did you guys managed to get all those parts, and where?

The plastic built parts. I'm having trouble finding some sellers. links dead, or stores that no longer sell parts, but full machines different from these...

I've read you can spend just 400 euros, and some guy/store sells it all for 700 euros.. a bit of a stretch...

400 euros is manufacturing ALL including PCBs, or you can buy the ellectronics pre-built and still get the 400 euros mark?

is there a way i can get all or most of the parts online in the same place, or at least links to suppliers to every part.. Lots of parts I cant find a link on BOM.. Anyone that just boght receantly all the parts, can please send me links?
I'm in Europe, so European suppliers prefered.

I have a good knowledge of mechanics and electronics, but I prefer not to build the PCBs..is it that much pricey to buy pre-made?


Please Help,

MaC

Just consider it as more of a spectrum, as far as costs go. The more time you're willing to spend making the parts yourself, the less it will cost you. For example, if you were to buy the threaded rods pre-cut, they will probably be more expensive than buying the raw materials and cutting them yourself.

As for 400 euros... My current build is around $700 at the moment. 400 * 1.4 (conversion from euro to dollar) = 560, so yes, unless you do have a machine shop in your basement, it will most likely cost you more than 400 euros.

Not sure, but the €400 price point may be more of a "if you already have a machine, and can thus print your own plastic parts, and you get all the cheapest prices possible on hardware/electronics" Which is of course not actually possible, as some suppliers will have higher shipping to where you are. And then you have to buy filament to print with as well.

It's not uncommon to spent $1000 on a mendel. Though I think that's becoming less common as more people get theirs working and sell a few sets of parts.

In particular, most people (it seems) go through several hot ends, which depending of if you buy or make and where you buy can run $25-$75.

So yes, you will definitely spend more than €400! I'd estimate closer to €700 or €800. This is a hobby, of course, and as such you'll tend to spend more on it as time goes by. After all, you'll need a second mendel to print parts for the first one if it breaks down. And then you'll need a third to try out that new support material, or the spoolhead design, or the toolchanger that somebody came up with, or make your own improved x-carriage design, etc.

This stuff is a great deal of fun and learning, and expense.

---

--
I'm building it with Baling Wire

Well, i found that mendel-parts.com sells all the material for 700€, so I would expect that i could buy it cheaper, if I would find me sume cheaper supplyers for several types os parts, no?

Question:
For my first model I wan't one that is recent (with all the newr improvements) and welll documented on the forum, so I can learn. Is the Mendel the right choice? I've read there is a version 2 Mendel, when I buy parts or kits, how do I know for wichone i'm buyin?

Can someone, that built a Mendel, and got cheap suppliers give me the links to the suppliers?

Thanks

I think Mendel parts can't handle all the orders right now. Last time I checked they said they were not accepting new orders.

They're taking orders again, but they've gone silent since. I have no idea whats going on, and I cant honestly recommend buying from mendel parts until they start talking again. Also, it's probably best to buy the plastics elsewhere, to avoid having to wait for mendel parts to work through their print queue. Buying through emakershop may be the way to go here but check ebay as well.

As for the most recent version, that would be Prusa Mendel, but the only real advantage is that it's cheaper to build.

Here's my advice:
I think it's a good idea to build a Mendel Prusa if you have a limited budget, it will save you some money.

1 - you need to buy the reprapped parts, check ebay, the prices are falling, expect to spend around $ 80 to $ 100 (let's 70 Euros), that's the most critical piece, stay away from the Laser cut parts.
2 - Electronics: 2 clear choices here, the electronics set from mendel-parts (150 Euros ), you can also buy a RAMPS set from ultimachine.com in the US for $ 200 ( 150 Euros ) fully assembled with End stops. The RAMPS set is more open and future proof since that's where the development of the software is heading.
4 - Hardware: can be acquired from local hardware store, in the US you can buy from Mcmaster.com, the reprap.org wiki lists similar sites in Europe, this will vary but should be less than $ 100 for a Prusa Mendel
5 - Belts, mcmaster in the US or Auto store
6 - Hot-end it's better to buy, you can try building your own but you have to have good tools and preferably a lathe, you can check mendel-parts and makergear.com, expect to pay 30 Euros.
7 - Stepper motors (alltronics.com), you can check Ebay the Nema 17 with enough torque should fetch around 10 Euros each, you would need 5 for Prusa and 4 for a regular Mendel (50 Euros total).


Pick one or two sources to minimize shipping charges since they can add up.

So the total would come to: 70 for RP parts,
150 for Electronics
100 for Hardware and Belts
30 for hot end
50 for stepper motors
It comes to 400 Euros

You would also need some additional supplies once you have it built:
- Plastic: from ultimachine, mendel-parts, makergear,
- Kapton tape: dealextreme.com


Regards
Tayeb

Thanks,
That was what I needed. some summary of what and where.
One question, what are the desavantages of the prusa, to the regual Mendel, is the prusa less precise?
Abou the Mendel, I read there is a Version 2.0, is that hardware or electonics version? witch buy guide should I follow?
Language barrier: what is exactly the "hot end" is it the base?

Thanks!

[forums.reprap.org] for info about the prusa vs the normal mendel.

And there is no version 2 of Mendel (unless you count the prusa and huxley). Rather, individual parts are periodically upgraded by different community members. For example, Wade contributed to this design and nophead made an improvement on the pulleys.

What they mean when they say Mendel V2, is that Darwin was V1 (I'm sure you've seen pictures, it looks like a big box), and Mendel IS version 2 (the triangle looking one).

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2011 07:49PM by An Original Name.

I think it would be hard to get an objective evaluation of the pros and cons of the Prusa versus the standard Mendel, it would require someone to have both printers and compare them side by side. The issue might become irrelevant as the price of the reprapped parts and bearings keeps coming down. Some people have claimed that the Prusa mendel would be less precise, I don't see what would cause that, both designs use the same gears and belts, same size motors etc. One issue with the Prusa Mendel might be the need to change the PLA bushings (one can also use Brass bushings). The simplifications of the Prusa mendel should not lead to a less sturdy frame. The main difference is in the Z axis which is used less frequently. The biggest factor in the quality of the output is the extruder. All the printers (UP!, Makerbot, and Mendels) share a very similar design.


Regards
Tayeb

tayeb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it would be hard to get an objective
> evaluation of the pros and cons of the Prusa
> versus the standard Mendel, it would require
> someone to have both printers and compare them
> side by side. The issue might become irrelevant
> as the price of the reprapped parts and bearings
> keeps coming down. Some people have claimed that
> the Prusa mendel would be less precise, I don't
> see what would cause that, both designs use the
> same gears and belts, same size motors etc. One
> issue with the Prusa Mendel might be the need to
> change the PLA bushings (one can also use Brass
> bushings). The simplifications of the Prusa mendel
> should not lead to a less sturdy frame. The main
> difference is in the Z axis which is used less
> frequently. The biggest factor in the quality of
> the output is the extruder. All the printers (UP!,
> Makerbot, and Mendels) share a very similar
> design.
>
>
> Regards
> Tayeb


Macsoft, welcome to RepRap (or at least soon).

I have built 3 Sells Mendel and helped the people get them running, I have also printed 7 sets I just sold out into the internet. I have sold 4 Prusa Mendel RP Sets, and put together the Prusa Mendel twice now (this last one is MINE, no one can have it, it's MINE )

In a perfect world Sells/Prusa should be almost identical in build quality, but unfortunately our form of fabbing is not perfect. Some of the Knuckles in the Sells are stacks of up to 4-5 parts (the X idler/motor come to mind). If the person that printed it for you has off parts the stacks are going to magnify the issue. Same as warpage when stacked magnifies the issue. Prusa has no stacked parts.

Properly installed/calibrated the bearing knuckles should not be an issue, but people have an issue getting the bearing knuckles in the sells tight/loose enough.

Sells Mendel requires a well made "squished frog", for the y, Prusa you could cut with a hand saw.

On the negitive side Prusa uses bushings, which have a higher drag than bearings. But they are also WAY easier to install, and force you to get the alignment right for it to work at all. Properly aligned bushings have very little more drag than a proper bearing.

Also Prusa is only 20-30 fasteners for the whole build, Sells is several hundred screws. It's a LOT more stuff to put together.

Sells Mendel never really had someone "driving" it. Meaning that for MONTHS after nophead made the better gears the main branch of Sells Menel was still telling people to use the old non grub screw version. With Prusa Kliment and Prusajr (and a few others like myself), are improving/taking advice on prusa design EVERY DAY.

That's the last big thing. Adrian is a busy man, and not the easiest to get hold of. Prusajr/Kliment on the other hand are in #reprap every day with Sebastian Johnnyr, Makergear's Rick, etc. If you have questions improvments they are RIGHT THERE to talk to.

So if you want to build a Sells, great, but it's going to cost you $600+RP parts. or you can build Prusa for $360+cheaper RP parts. Or you could get a Prusa kit from Makergear for $825 or a Cupcake kit from MB for $899 or a Sells Mendel kit from Mendelparts for $925, or a Strat printed Sells kit for $1065 from Botmill, or a ToM from MB for $1225.

It does not matter, once you have a 3d printer you upgrade to any future RepRap that ever exists. I say go cheap and get Prusa RP parts and self source the vitimens, or get the cheapest kit you can find (Makergear Prusa kit right now).

I hope this helped.

---

repraplogphase.blogspot.com

Thanks everybody!
I'me getting really excited to get this going.
I think i'll follow your advice and start cheap, i can allways upgrade, right?

So, for a Prusa Mendel, where can I get well-made cheap RP parts (i'm in europe)? I dont know the sellers... I'm worried I get some bad parts... Or could some of you good people print me some quality parts, and sell them to me for a good price? (europe please)

I will follow the advice to get the electronics and the hot-end from Mendel-parts. what type of hot-end shoud I get for starters? 1.75 mm or 2.9 mm?
the GEN6 electronics, is it the same for regular mendel and Prusa, right? probably needs a different firmaware?

Thanks!

i see no advice for the bed(base?), sould I buy, or build? here to buy? thanks

The bed at first can just be a sheet of plywood and a sheet of acylic you buy at your hardware store. Once you start printing big you might want to invest in a headed build platform, but I would wait till your up and going. No need to spend too much money up front.

Gen6 will work fine for Prusa, but don't overlook the Ramps by Ultimachine also, that's what many people have went to. Gen6 is an all on 1 board electronics, meaning if 1 thing burns out you have to get a new board. Ramps it's all plugged together (sort of like you PC), So it's sort of 1 board, but if a stepper goes you just replace a $12 stepper instead of the whole board.

For hot ends, 3mm is a lot more avialable and cheaper, but 1.75 is the way the community is leaning. I would start with a 3mm and go to 1.75 once you have your machine up and running.

As for the parts, they are sold on ebay, in the reprap irc on freenode, on the forums, in the emakershop, at Makergear, and a few other places I can't remember right now. As for build quality, as long as it's not cast parts, your usually ok. Only really quality critical parts are the gears, and you can buy those off the shelf at a few places.

---

repraplogphase.blogspot.com

I was kind of leaning on mendel-parts.com because its in Europe. If I have to send it from the States, it will take longer, and I could have to pay extra on customs. If mendel-parts have some on stock, i'll probably start there.
I weard that with gen6 you can only use the software that comes with it? is that true?

No, you can run any software which can talk to 5D firmware. Check the CAM toolchains article on the wiki to see which software is compatible.

I must warn you against ordering from Mendel-parts... They have VERY slow customer support and a VERY long lead time on most of what they sell. Be willing to wait a couple months to get what you order from them.

I second Original's advise on mendel-parts.com. My experience with Camiel in the past has been positive, I am still hopeful that they will be able to manage their supply to the satisfaction of their customers in the near future. I don't think it's time yet to order from Mendel-parts.com. You can check the forums at mendel-parts.com to get an idea of the issues the customers' are facing and it's a good indicator of whether the situation is getting better. As previously mentioned there are a lot of sources to get what you need.

Regards
Tayeb

hum.. I'll try and find a good European supplier then.
For the RepRap parts for Mendel, I found this store: [www.2printbeta.de]
Can someone recomend this guys? Do they usually ship quicklly? are the parts good quality? Does this includes the Extruder? I've read there are varius type of extruders.. is this one ok?

I found this cool video, that helps me having a good look on all the parts: [www.youtube.com]

I can't say I've bought anything from the 2printbeta guys, but they definitely do a lot of innovation with 3D printing, which is a good start. Their blog is worth following if you aren't already doing so.

Question: When I buy the complete electronic kit, RAMP or GEN6, that is it? I have all the electronics I'll need?
I've been reading, is the temperature sensor included? anything missing?

I've seen some machines with fans for cooling.
If i stap a fan where do I connect it? the electronics have an output ready for it? and is the firmware ready for that, or do I have to change it?

About the firmware: I wanna build a Prusa Mendel. I know I can use the same electronics as the regular mendel, but I need diferent firmware, right? both RAMP and GEN6 have firmware ready for the prusa design?

About the extruder: the kit i've boght says it comes with the extruder RP parts. I'll need also an hot-end. and some screws for it. what else?

Thanks.

Mendel and Prusa Mendel can use the same firmware.

---

Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse

They can? cool! I thoght that if the config was different and it has one more motor, that it would be different. thanks

About the rest: Am I fogetting something? i've ordered:
-RP Parts (inc. extruder)
-hardware inc. bearings
-still tryng to decide between ful kit Gen6 ou RAMPS (mostly 'caus none has a kit for delivery right now)
- stepper motors
-hot-end


i've read about opto switches (gen6 comes with some), and thermomister (?!) for cheking the temp on the hot-end? this comes with any kit, or do I have to buy separatly?

What else?

Thanks

macsoft Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They can? cool! I thoght that if the config was
> different and it has one more motor, that it would
> be different. thanks
This isn't a firmware change, but it does take a little extra hardware and/or electronics. If your stepper drivers are strong enough (polulu drivers on the RAMPS kit are not likely to be - I'm not even sure if v2.3 steppers could) you can try driving two motors that are tied together in parallel. Alternatively, solder one polulu driver on top of another (connect all pins except for 2A, 2B, 1A, and 1B ) then wire the motor outputs of each one to a separate motor. This is how I have been running mine ever since getting fed up with the belt drive on my techzone mendel. Other than not being able to manually move the axis, I'm happy with it. It got rid of wobble caused by uneven pulleys and a stretchy belt.

>
> About the rest: Am I fogetting something? i've
> ordered:
> -RP Parts (inc. extruder)
> -hardware inc. bearings
> -still tryng to decide between ful kit Gen6 ou
> RAMPS (mostly 'caus none has a kit for delivery
> right now)
> - stepper motors
> -hot-end
Power supply? Filament - what size do you want to try, 3mm (normal size), 1.75mm, or both? Do you want a heated build plate? (recomended, if not now then at least research it)

>
>
> i've read about opto switches (gen6 comes with
> some), and thermomister (?!) for cheking the temp
> on the hot-end? this comes with any kit, or do I
> have to buy separatly?
>
Depends. Makergear sells a complete hot end kit, most eBay sellers just sell parts for building a hot end rather than one complete package. Makerbot Industries and Ultimachine are also other popular sources you might want to check out. There are pros and cons to either approach - buying a complete package verses rolling your own. Just research before you buy to make sure you get exactly what you are expecting and that it will meet your needs.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2011 05:18PM by dazed.dnc.

The Z_STEPS_PER_MM will need to change because the motors drive the lead-screw directly, whereas the pulleys gear it down on the original.

---

[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

My built so far. Stopped waiting for motors and electronics:

[www.youtube.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2011 02:37PM by macsoft.

top plate made of a kitchen cuting board. Strong and temperature resistant

That's coming together nicely Macsoft! You're not hanging about!

I'm close to ordering electronics/motors/extruder etc. myself so have been watching the replies you are getting. There's lots of judgment calls to be made as you work your way through what's needed, and a lot of reading and learning. All good fun.

I too have been leaning towards Gen6, it being sourced in Europe and an all-in one soution, but trying to weigh up the advantages and disadvantages of the all-in-one bit. If I fry it it will be costly! That's the big downside. I don't know what to go for yet.

Keep us posted!
No.6
---
[numbersixreprap.blogspot.com]

hey NumberSix, Thanks!

I went for the RAMPS. Gen6 seller hasn't responded to any of my numerous messages and e-mails, and everyone says he is too busy, so I went for the US one.
There is a reseller for RAMPS in Europe too, it would be faster. Nut he didn't had all the parts to ship immediately.
US Ramps seller, didn't had Arduino MEGA too. so I bought all the rest, and boght an Arduino mega clone (much cheaper) from ebay.
I ordered the unassembled RAMPS. cheaper, and i like soldering.
Bought used motors cheap from ebay too.

The only problem is the waiting... got all the hardware about ready, and no electronics or motors..US mail delivery is still made by horse. and they get tired swimming all the way to Europe...
I'm really glad with my parts from 2printbeta (domonoky).
I'm really glad with my extruder's grip. I was sketchy on the making of the groves on the screw, but it went very well.
big mistake: hardware store only had a bit wide m8 washers, no really skinny ones. result: some places with bends on parts you really need the skinny ones. had to cut some.

cant find no m8 fender wahshers too. had to use m10 against some m8.

So now... wainting...and waiting...