Open sourcelie deleted, shame on you?

Nophead, of course people working full time could advance reprap, unless they figure their ip is to valuable to open source.

Its a simple debate. If you want to make money why not promote your machine on what it does different. It seems most of the new breed USP is that its open source.

Passinglurker, stop being so dramatic.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2012 03:52PM by VDX.

I haven't promoted it at all because I haven't finished the instructions. I have blogged what it is unique about it. It is rigid due to its geometry rather than material strength, is largely self aligned and it is fully parametric.

It is also opens source because the source code is all on line and people are building them from that information and without buying anything from me. Others have bought parts on request. I plan to sell kits. I don't sell anything that isn't open source. There is no lie and I have no shame.

The thread wasn't deleted because of your contrary view, or to protect anybody's interests. It was deleted because many people reported it as abuse.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2012 06:02AM by nophead.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

How can asking a question be abuse? Maybe I had to return the negativity to others whose aim was to derail the debate, and had nothing to say on the main question. But we are all adults. I try to have a debate but many are up in arms mainly because the question was asked.

I think asking about how open source is the reprap movement, is a valid question. Also someone else brought up the point of hidden bom. Is this in keeping with open source. I don't think it is.

Reprap was an open forum for ideas which used to flow freely. Now it has been reduced to people making money, usually from other open source designs, without adding anything new. Repackaged to an unsuspecting public.

Look at bukobot. Does his machine move reprap forward?


All this does is keep reprap as an amateur hobby machine in the eyes of the public. Not in a good way.

fab@home has always looked more professional.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2012 03:52PM by VDX.

Asking a question is not abuse. Calling people idiots and criticising spelling and grammar in a technical forum is in many peoples opinion.

Looking back at your previous posts I see they too have raised complaints to the moderators. By this definition: [en.wikipedia.org]) I would say you are definitely a troll. Are you this rude to people in person, or just on line?

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

VDX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... i'm following this with some interest, as it's
> a lesson in arguing and i can improve my English
>


Same here, I'd even say "pointless arguing". Pop corn anyone ?

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Most of my technical comments should be correct, but is THIS one ?
Anyway, as a rule of thumb, always double check what people write.

... I think, it's mostly the other way round - look where fab@home is today ... and then look where RerRap is

When i joined the RepRap-team, it was some time since I was in contact with Evan from fab@home and Zach from RepRap (Zach changed later to Makerbot) .

For the practically not existing progress/development of the f@h-printer (it was simply perfect, so why redevelop something?), I turned away from f@h and folow RepRap since then ...

If something is wrong with this (and it seems, 99.99% of the old and new RepRap-community members don't think so), then it's maybe only your personal point of view not fitting in the big image?

I think, you should stop your private crusade and spend some time with the community, to learn, how real life is acting.

I don't think, it's all perfect here ... but it's an interesting place to learn, participate and give back ...

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

Nophead if someone is going to attack then I will reciprocate. It seems even asking the question is considered trolling.

The spelling comment was because the whole post was incomprehensible probably due to the poster not liking the original question.

Vdx I said the machine looks more professional to an outsider.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2012 03:54PM by VDX.

OH NO I R IN SCH FTS OF RG I CNT TYP. IT WLL BE AL INCMPRHNSBL. WHT WLL I DO

Seriously. This is nearly as good as the Avengers.

gerards1111

You have spent way too much time arguing online.

I like this place because arguing really doesn't happen here much and things just get discussed and solved.

I'm not really sure what your point is anymore. You keep taking issue with nice helpful open people over nothing. How is that getting anywhere?

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Make your Mendel twice as accurate.
[www.thingiverse.com]

It's amazing how many posts are the same as yours in this whole debate. Not offering anything but trying to be amusing.

Like how you are running with the sit back and eat popcorn idea. What are you expecting to see?

Avengers was better than this.

It's like the rapcraft comment on Indiegogo. How dare anyone who is not sanctioned do anything different. Keep the money within the group. That is probably why printrbot isn't on the front page. Sure that riled a lot here.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2012 03:54PM by VDX.

"Like how you are running with the sit back and eat popcorn idea. What are you expecting to see?"

You doing what you seem to do best. Whats to offer? I don't even really know what you are complaining about.

This whole project is one of the best things I have ever found on the Internet and your moaning because its not perfect to your idea of whatever that is.

I'm just glad it exists along with this great community. I would not be researching, building or experimenting with the fantastic ideas I am now If it didn't exist.

I would have had nothing to keep me occupied and give me something to better to do with myself when I was depressed some time ago either.

So what is your problem with all this cool free help and information. I'm bloody grateful for it and all the people who make it happen.

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Make your Mendel twice as accurate.
[www.thingiverse.com]

I am glad for you but I thought the question needed asking.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2012 03:55PM by VDX.

What question ? I only seen assertions.

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Most of my technical comments should be correct, but is THIS one ?
Anyway, as a rule of thumb, always double check what people write.

If the mentioned separate individuals or businesses do not come up to your standard of open source then that's one thing. But they are all separate entities not bound by each other or us. And so must be addressed separately in detail. And its only your opinion on what it means to be open source anyway and its obvious that people here disagree with your definition or requirements.

None of us have any direct ability to do anything about how individuals or companies decide to use the open source label. So if they want to do things you think are wrong you can't stop them. That's why this discussion is pointless. You have not even suggested one thing to make them think why you are correct or why they should take any notice of your views.

If you wanted you could create a website where you rate them by some system on how well they comply with your definition and why you think that and assigned that rating. That would more productive than this discussion. But you would need to get all your facts and reasons absolutely correct otherwise people would get very upset with you. And as many disagree with your interpretation they probably would anyway.

There I have a provided more of a practical course of action for you than you have for your own problem which I disagree with and don't think is one.

How pointless does that make this discussion or the question. And if you ask a question which may well be valid you may wish to take a more reasonable approach. If many disagree you can't just dismiss their points and continually argue as if only your idea of open source is the only correct one. The definition is too gray for that. Plus your tone and attitude toward people was abysmal. And unwanted views on pricing or specific machines was off topic. The machine and technology is irrelevant if the topic is how open source it is.

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Make your Mendel twice as accurate.
[www.thingiverse.com]

he is like occupy wallstreet he has made such a stink that he has lost credibility

also if you are so defensive about your right to ask questions and get answers THEN ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!

since your question and the answer to it has been lost in all the flames i'll try to reconstruct it please pick the one closest to what you are asking
1. Q: is crowdfunding a problem that will lead to reprap users turning on each other to earn a quick buck?
A: no and if it does new users will take thier place
2. Q: crowdfunding with out publishing the designs first for free is a problem we should shun any one from the community who tries to crowdfund a printer with out giving the source away for free first.
A: this isn't a question its assertion, and its not going to happen people have the freedom to do what they want with their designs if their choices are wrong then the market will take care of the rest assuming the idealist vote with their wallet instead of their mouths.
3. Q: how do we get back from our accelerated capitalistic progress to the good old days?
A: we don't reprap was created as something that will change and evolve. commercialism is an unexpected adaptation that has so far proven its self fit for survival.
4. Q: I can't seem to do it my self so do you guys have any ideas as to how I can harrass sublime into giving me his tantillous files for free now so I can build one before any of his backers and feed my ego
A: I'm pretty sure thats cyber bulling and if it isn't yet is on the fast track to being made illegal
5. Q: should the definition of opensource be made narrower than it already is?
A: no then no one would use it. also opensource is about freedom, narrowness is about restrictions, see how those to don't mix well?

I wondered how long it would take for you to answer your own questions.

I have decided to make my own version of a Mendel in steel and will put it on crowdsourcing. It will be open source. I will make a blog and link it to here.

Please close this thread as it's going nowhere. Too many closed minds and drama queens.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2012 03:55PM by VDX.

My only complaint is when you see an obvious rip-off of an existing reprap design with no advancements, improvements, or engineering changes and they even use reprap electronics and PCBs. Yet they continue to claim it is a "new" printer that is "self developed" and basically slapping all the DEVs in the face for their hardwork. This is blatant plagiarism! Yes RapCraft added some changes and innovations that make it a new product and slightly different than say a MendelMax, but at the same time credit is due to the ones who laid the stepping stones. I respect the Makerbot, Ultimachines, and Makergear Mosiacs more because they are a change from the typical Reprap and incorporate different ideas into the machine. This is the meaning of opensource.

Here lately opensource has meant, easy to rip off and not credit correctly. In that way I cannot blame someone who designed something unique and does not want to release source until a return on the investment has been met. But if you do what printrbot did and copy Prusa's MK1 HBP and take Prusa's name off of it that is WRONG and I consider it theft. It's not like we are giving Josef money when we have his open source board produced at a PCB maker, the least we could do is leave his name on the board for his credit.

Printrbot can burn in hell for doing this, and if I was Josef I would let them know who's HBP that really is:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/-OAD3KdgW42c/T7BZkjbreCI/AAAAAAAAAt0/S1mg_2GPlFM/s1600-h/IMG_0291%25255B7%25255D.jpg

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2012 06:22PM by WildBill.

many opensource projects have policies against giving credit and haveing a contributors name assosiated with at line of code because it makes a big potentially legal/political mess look at the greg's-wade's-tom's-jeffersons-hinged-accessible-herringbone-geared-directdrive-1.75-extruder-coldend(not real but an example of what could happen if current trends continue). if i was josef i would say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. fussing over attributing and copyrights slows progress that's why some devs would resort to croudfunded source delays to recoup some of their development cost and then wash their hands of it cause despite the delay its not as big of a time waster as worrying about who though to use a pcb as a hbp first and making sure their name gets on it

?

so let me get this straight, it took the 3rd page of this thread for us to get what your issue was with NopHead, and one post for him to answer back.

you found about the most long winded and roundabout way to ask your questions. witch i don't think anyone had any real issues with being asked, and i gotta admit i did not know, but now that it was answered i don't think anyone here had any issues with.

what i find to be very telling is how you reacted to allot of people who asked you questions, that told us allot more about you, than you think.

there are allot of people here, but we all need to be clear with our questions, the reason allot of people were annoyed with you was because you were as clear as mud.

VDX the thought of you learning grammar from me, scares me. i suck at grammar. that has been pointed out to me allot too. so i try to keep things short and concise.

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[mike-mack.blogspot.com]

BillyK needn't of worried. If you make money just delay the files.

Time to close.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2012 10:32PM by gerards1111.

For a lot of gerards1111 posts, I only see ?, why is this.

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Random Precision

... this is one more of this "angry/disappointed user deletes his posts"-cases

Because of such occasions I've changed the forum settings, so mods can reactivate the posts ... otherwise whole threads went unreadable and can only be deleted.

I've PM'd him several times from the beginning on for his unappropriate behaviour, but he wasn't in the mood to change something to it

What's the main consensus - delete the complete thread or reactivate the deleted posts and save the thread for the records? ... and/or ban gerards1111?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2012 05:06AM by VDX.

---

Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

It's disappointing when people decide to remove their posts, especially on such a large scale where others have also contributed to the debate, there are enough references and quotes in the remaining posts to highlight many of the arguments going on in this thread, so in that respect it was fairly pointless for the posts to be edited to just a '?' everyone posting should at least be able to stand by what they post on an open forum.

The other thread had some really good replies and posts/links to many of the challenges and arguments, people spent the time to counter points, so in that respect I would personally like to see threads locked and moved, not deleted. If posts in any thread are offensive, they should be removed or edited and marked as offensive, again to highlight where the threads degenerated and the arguments deteriorated.

I'm sure many people reading these threads over the last week, have formed their own summary of the state of fairness and the general open-source guidelines people are following when releasing, developing and selling in this market, and that summary would be slightly different for everyone. But these threads are still a valid reference point (just) for the future. - It's only going to get even more complicated as this booming industry marches on.

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[richrap.blogspot.com]

gerads1111 is a troll...

If he won't stand by what he said then of what conviction was what he was saying? Especially considering his rigid stance on some things.

Even if I offend someone intentionally or unintentionally I would rather leave it and apologize later then just delete it.

And even if nobody posting listens your ideas and points, they are there for everyone to read not just the posters.

I say keep the thread. It does discuss the topic and the possible conflicts with open source and business. And demonstrates how not to argue or wind people up when making a point. Or how disagreement on one thing does not mean you can't work with or help someone. And does not justify being abusive or antagonistic.

---

Make your Mendel twice as accurate.
[www.thingiverse.com]

I do stand by what I said but given the other thread was deleted, the whole point was lost so I deleted.

I do like how vdx now justifies retrieving the posts when he also justified deleting the last thread. hypocrite?

The point is a valid one no matter how venomous some on here are against anyone questioning views.

This is a completely pointless discussion, argument, mud slinging match.

gerards1111 started with two assertions: -

1) That it is wrong to advertise something as open source before the source is made available. This is simply not true. Opensource means the source has to is available to the customer with the product. Whether anybody thinks it should be different is irrelevant. There is no point discussing it here as we can't change it.

2) That opensource products shouldn't be too expensive, or too cheap. The price is entirely up to the seller to set and the customers to vote on by buying or not. The sellers aren't going to change their prices due to anything said by a troll, so again it is pointless discussing it here.

As the thread was completely pointless, generated lots of complaints to the moderators and contained no useful information I deleted it. I thought that better than picking though it censoring the abusive bits. If there had been some useful information I would have left it but it was just a pointless row. All that happen was this one popped up instead.

The best thing to do would be to ban gerards1111, but I don't have the power to do that.

The only practical thing that can be changed by people that read these forums is what goes on the front page of the wiki and that has been argued to death in another thread. The reprap community has no other controlling influence over all these machines that pop up about one per day.

I personally think it should only be machines with enough detail that someone can make one without going to a single commercial source. So certainly there should be a complete parts list and it should be practical for an individual to procure those parts but I wouldn't go so far as saying companies have to reveal their suppliers.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

Again you misundersood the point.

Yes I feel that opensource is being used as a marketing tool where the seller has no real want to open source the design. The idea is to make the money and then halfheatedly release some of the design. In the case of makerbot make it difficult to get all the parts which in my mind is wrong given how much he mentions open source in his tv appearences.

Again if the seller has to quote the open source agreement then I dont feel that they truly want to be open source. See above.
And yes if you read it to the letter then of course you can find get out clauses. But really if your heart is open why would you need to justify not releasing, like billyk.


Without a suppliers list and part numbers how can one obtain some of the parts. Let alone missing schematics make it impossible to make some of the parts.

I do find it odd that you repeatedly refer to me as a troll to lessen the point I made in the beginning. Do I care, not really. If it helps you to ignore the point.

I think you find I asked the question based on what I had seen change over the last couple of years, it seems many feel that the question shouldnt have been asked so started to attack.

Nophead you seem to be the opposite of what I assumed you would be. Im sure you would say thats good, but it isnt.

I say you are a troll because you made a stink over something you have no control over and no part in, then take the time to go through and replace all of the previous posts with a ? to remove your side of the discussion after you complain about your side of the discussion being censored by the admins...

I didn't make a stink. I made an observation. Some took offence and decided to attack. I could have ignored them but decided to reciprocate. I do this to see how far they want to go. If you read my original comments I was not the one who would attack first.

I am making a version of the mendel and will be selling it "open source". I'm sure you will support it.

I always find people who resort to name calling, ie troll, a bit childish. I also find most use the word troll when they have no opinion. Its usually a game of who calls the person troll first. Im sure you are all slapping each others back under your respective bridges.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2012 12:27PM by gerards1111.