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Has REPRAP come to a standstill?

Posted by maboo 
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madmike8
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 14, 2014 02:30PM
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WillAdams
'll keep at it, but I'd find it a lot easier if there were more alternatives for solder less connections --- my old soldering iron didn't show up in my Father's estate and I'm not that wild about using the mini torch he apparently replaced it w/ or getting a new one.

This may be what your in search of...

Hand Wire Splicing Technique
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vegasloki
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 14, 2014 04:23PM
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Traumflug
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vegasloki
Shapeoko is a CNC router and while it cuts plastic it's not an additive process nor can it replicate many parts. There is an extensive Github, Wiki and active forum and user community.

Elsewhere, so no RepRap.

I struggle a bit with calling every cheap manufacturing machine a RepRap, just because the project owner happens to appear on IRC a few times. Or whatever makes people considering it a RepRap while cheap lathes and milling machines are not. And I'm perfectly fine with machines which are not part of RepRap. I own such stuff, too.

I didn't call it a Reprap. I'm using the example of a profit driven motive for good documentation in the open hardware space. There are others as well, Sparkfun, Adafruit and Seeed to name a few.
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vegasloki
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 14, 2014 04:44PM
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WillAdams
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vegasloki
I agree that docs are one place where Reprap could be more comprehensive and consistent. That's a s much of a difference in the communities and the fact everyone here can have direct participation in the Wiki, as opposed to the benevolent dictator style used on the Shapeoko Wiki. ... When there is a free for all as is with Reprap the structure is disjointed and doesn't follow a standardized format and in some cases contains inaccurate information.

Who's being dicatorial on the Shapeoko wiki?

Aside from not tolerating linkspam, there's never been an edit or text addition which wasn't welcome.

The fact that things are so disjointed on the reprap wiki makes it all the more important that there be an overall structure to things --- a chronological listing at minimum would be easy and would provide some structure and make things a bit easier to find.

Here's an example of the github docs which I want fixed: [github.com] (should be ...wasteboard.pdf)

Benevolent dictator is a term that I saw first used in the early days of open source software development. The description applies to a person or organization that while they have complete and final control over the resource/project/whatever, they are still reasonable and work for what they see as the best interst in the the project not necessarily what everyone else wants. The term has been applied to the likes of Torvolds, Guido van Rossum, Rasmus Lerdorf and Larry Wall. I'd say that's pretty good company. Stallman and Raymond also use the term in some of their respective writings from the 90s as well.

The structure which you propose on the Reprap Wiki can only be enforced with a benevolent dictator model. A free for all does not work at this scale or with a subject matter as diverse as this. Conversely, when someone such as yourself comes in and says this should change and here's how is well and good but ignores the history and what got the situation to where it is. Reprap isn't the kind of community where there should be an enttitlement to information. It's easy enough for those with a background in the hacker/maker movement that are interested in learning. Others may pontificate and demand change in a manner much more aggressive than you have been but in the end if someone wants something, they need to go do it. You have ideas, you have experience in this sort of thing. I suggest that if you wish change rather than complaining you do something about it.
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WillAdams
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 14, 2014 10:03PM
I've got quite enough to do, thank you.

I'll document a millstrap conversion for a ShapeOko over on the wiki for that and if anyone wants to copy or re-use it, they're more than welcome to. Anything I encounter over on this side of the house which I can improve/fix, I'll fix, as I've already worked at.

But the dictator thing? My family doesn't tolerate them, we fight them. I don't like the idea, I hate the term and the threat which it represents to freedom.
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madmike8
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 14, 2014 10:29PM
Will, as someone who owns a Shapeoko, and uses the wiki that YOU keep up... Thank You!!! I've used it often, and it's been very helpful. Evidently you do such a good job that they think your an Inventables Employee or something...
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Traumflug
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 15, 2014 07:01AM
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WillAdams
I've got quite enough to do, thank you.

Everybody else has, too. Not a good excuse.

Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
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WillAdams
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 15, 2014 08:39AM
There's a marked difference between a reason and an excuse.

I don't make excuses.
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smartfriendz
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 15, 2014 12:26PM
To answer to maboo, on the "true" reprap spirit, I can say some are trying to keep it alive ( like me ) smiling smiley

I know perfectly that printed structure for a reprap is not as good as metal or aluminium one and it's lot more challenging to have it working well. It just depends of what people are looking for ?

On my side , i decided to don't look after the top notch quality 3d printer, because to do that , as the time goes and features are progressing, you really need a lot of engineering , machined parts , precision elements... . That is not compatible with ,"home made" stuff for me. So, watch my little smartrap project on thingiverse and you will see that a lot of people ( i'm very happy, there's really a lot :-) are not looking for quality only, but for easy to replicate, easy to build and more importantly : doable at home 3d printer, without the need of laser cut, special machines or precision tooling.

One other aspect i believe in this kind of project is that with all ( at least the most we can) printed parts, we can SHARE design , solutions and experiments with a community in quasi real time. That's not really feasible with other technologies like laser cut or machinery.

I understand your thought about reprap not being active anymore, because i've seen like you that all projects are switching to more "industrial" solutions for 3d printers, and that's very natural i think. I just wanted to say that there is still a community ready to try and keep the starting idea alive smiling smiley

the Smartrap project

[smartfriendz.com]
[www.thingiverse.com]
[reprap.org]
[github.com]
doc assemblage: [reprap.org]
NEW: Forum smartfriendz: [smartraptalk.smartfriendz.com]
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MrDoctorDIV
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 15, 2014 12:56PM
I think RepRap just has fever and needs more cowbell


Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus
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MrDoctorDIV
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 15, 2014 12:58PM
Seriously though, it seems people here take things way too seriously sometimes. It often breaks out into personal attacks or look at me's. We've lost the community driven aspect and turned to making things better for ourselves. At least, that's how I've observed things.

Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus
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akhlut
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 15, 2014 05:15PM
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MrDoctorDIV
Seriously though, it seems people here take things way too seriously sometimes. It often breaks out into personal attacks or look at me's. We've lost the community driven aspect and turned to making things better for ourselves. At least, that's how I've observed things.

Exactly - keep it civil.

Not to detract from what many have said here, but I no longer care about self-replication. DNA doesn't self-replicate - a whole host of helpers accomplishes that task. Self-replication is a noble goal but one that is physically impossible. Unless your machine can mine, refine, form then mill the vitamins. And let's not forget the drilling for oil, let alone refining it into a suitable plastic for extrusion (you're not printing structural parts out of PLA are you?). And don't forget the electronics. Reprap depends on a whole host of industrial processes. If they disappear Reprap disappears as there is no foreseeable way to 'close the loop'.

Any more all I care about is whether a project is open source, and whether it's a useful tool for self-actualization. I want to learn new things and to tackle projects in new ways. Most importantly I want to use the right tool, process and material for the task at hand. If that's a Reprap, great! If it's a CNC mill, fantastic!

Now I've designed and built several Repraps and a shapeoko mill. The printers are awesome and I use them all the time but for some things other materials and processes are preferable, hence the mill. And if I can use one open source tool to improve another open source tool I'm going to do that, then share what I've done so that others can do the same.

And I would say that a shapeoko can self-replicate just as much as any Reprap can, maybe more in terms of % self-replicating. It'll cut aluminum all day long, and since it can be cut from aluminum it can self-replicate (depending on your skill at machining of course). I milled 1/2" aluminum for a z-axis upgrade with zero issues using my shapeoko, so it's more than up to the task of self-replication.

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]
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pbrstreetgang
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 15, 2014 06:55PM
I agree 100% [forums.reprap.org]. What makes a product thrive is quality and cost. Not self replication. You can't make it ubiquitous and self replicating. The two concepts are mutually exclusive.

Basically, the concept of the reprap project should be minimalism, not self replication.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2014 07:22PM by pbrstreetgang.
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MrDoctorDIV
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 15, 2014 09:33PM
Minimalism. Mmmm, I love the word. Make something as simple as possible, yet effective in it's purpose.

Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus
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vegasloki
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 15, 2014 11:23PM
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pbrstreetgang
I agree 100% [forums.reprap.org]. What makes a product thrive is quality and cost. Not self replication. You can't make it ubiquitous and self replicating. The two concepts are mutually exclusive.

Basically, the concept of the reprap project should be minimalism, not self replication.

It's not a product. It's a project. For those that are new here or new to Reprap a bit of history is in order.

Though we participate and some contribute it's Adrian Bowyer's project. He defined and started it and it's grown from there. It was never intended to be able to replicate everything and the construct is much greater in scope than building an inexpensive 3D printer. It's more of an exercise in academia as described in a Feb 2004 mailing list post from Bowyer that describes the philosophy and goals of the Bath Replicating Rapid Prototyping Project. [reprap.org]

Quote

This list is an attempt to make a compromise between immediately-achievable technology and the desirable aim of shortening or eliminating it altogether. Note that it implies a machine that is capable of building three-dimensional objects from both an electrically insulating material and a conductor, like our deposition head in the picture. After the components have been made, it is quite acceptable for a person to assemble the machine from those components and the standard parts listed above, and to copy the firmware from the parent machine's microcontroller into that of the child.
The original idea of a Universal Constructor was of a machine that would both self-copy and self-assemble - as a bacterium or a daffodil do. The machine I propose will self-copy, but not self-assemble. In nature all four possibilities exist: things that neither self-copy nor self-assemble, like rocks; things that self-copy but don't self-assemble, like viruses; things that self-assemble but don't self-copy, like proteins; and finally things that both self-copy and self-assemble, like you and me. And you and I are quite dexterous at assembling machines that we want (even if we do swear at flat-pack furniture), so the second alternative (self-copying without self-assembly) is economically and practically the most interesting option. This web-page, therefore, is about making a useful virus that is as big as a fridge...
It would also be useful (though not initially essential) if the machine could grow itself by making appropriate components to extend its own movement axes, and could self-calibrate (possibly using an accurate reference object or a pattern of standard size) so that child machines would make products as accurately as their parent machine.
The three most important aspects of such a self-copying rapid-prototyping machine are that:
1. The number of them in existence and the wealth they produce can grow exponentially,
2. The machine becomes subject to evolution by artificial selection, and
3. The machine creates wealth with a minimal need for industrial manufacturing.

Some history...

[en.wikipedia.org]

While we are all entitled to opinions and they are most welcome to be discussed here, I think it presumptuous to come in 10 years or so after the fact and expound on what Reprap should or shouldn't be. It's already something and if others have ideas (and there are many good ideas) they should forge on with the those projects using this project as muse. Reprap already is something and has been that for more than a decade. Rather than pigeon hole it into something to do with 3D printer or even DIY 3D printing appreciate Reprap for what it is and has been. Things change and already we've seen people come and go but the original intent has stayed the same. The concept though shouldn't be co-opted because some at this point have opinions that aren't in line with the original intent of the project. Love it for what it is. Or not...
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pbrstreetgang
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 16, 2014 12:16AM
There is a great historical parallel for the RepRap project; Alchemy. A group of really smart guys got together some 500 years ago or so, and decided they were going to make lead into gold. Is it possible to make lead into gold? The short answer is no. But alchemy did have some great byproducts; a greater exploration of chemistry as a whole and a little guy called Sir Isaac Newton. So, it all kind of worked out in the end. RepRap has been around for 10 years? Whoopdeedoo! Alchemy has been around for 500 years and they still haven't been able to make lead into gold. It's not for a lack of trying. You just can't do it. As for the future of the RepRap project, "adapt or die."
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vegasloki
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 16, 2014 01:20AM
The shortcoming in your argument is you are looking at Reprap as it were an object. It's not an object. It's an abstract exercise. There is nothing to adapt or die. You and others are taking the replication aspect too literal and fail to see the project is more about empowering people to make things and share that knowledge. The machine in and of itself is secondary to the benefit. In the objectification of the goal the nuances are lost.

Another specious concept in your argument is assuming that self replication to 100% of components is an all encompassing goal. A hell or bust proposition. No one, including Dr Bowyer thought that everything in the machine could be replicated. A cursory reading of the goals one would see that there is a list of components that were never intended to be replicated and that replication in and of itself is secondary to the stated goal of empowerment. In fact the founders knew full well they couldn't replicate every part out of plastic. Yet your argument is based on your perception rather than what is stated by the founder. You are making this about a commercial venture or product or tool when in fact it's a philosophical and academic exercise. In my view there is more of a Marxist approach rather than a capitalistic approach to the project, particularly in the early writings. You imply the founders were naive or unrealistic yet have failed to understand the motivation behind the behind the project and go further by mis-characterizing the intent of the goals of the project . He was thinking about this at a deeper level than "make cheap printer that can replicate".

People haven't been trying to convert lead into gold for centuries. Using such hyperbole presents your position in such a way that it lacks credibility.
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pbrstreetgang
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 16, 2014 02:10AM
I am acitvely trying to use and make less money. Your ideas about capatilism and communism are lost on me man (I'm a minimalist). The intent of the project vs. the goal of the project aren't lost on me, but there is a tipping point at which using more and more 3d printed parts becomes counterproductive. So let's throw the book away and come up with some new design guidelines. I recommend #1 should be stop using the word "vitamins." Seriously, who cares if it's 3d printed or not. Does it work, is it safe, is it affordable? That's it. Those 3 things. That's all that matters. No more of Adrian Bowyer's pseudo-science. It's just white noise & soap operas as far as I'm concerned.
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Traumflug
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 16, 2014 07:20AM
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pbrstreetgang
Does it work, is it safe, is it affordable? That's it. Those 3 things.

4. Is it available?

Trying to get cheap stuff doesn't help if you can't get it at all. And that's the reason why even high volume designs like the Ormerod still use printed parts.

By your measures you should build a WolfStrap. Still the cheapest design, safe, and it works.

Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
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smartfriendz
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 16, 2014 11:11AM
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Traumflug

By your measures you should build a WolfStrap. Still the cheapest design, safe, and it works.

or buy a product ? it's safe, it works ( usually) , and no one will bother you with some weird marxist philosophy smiling smiley you pay, you use. simple .

the Smartrap project

[smartfriendz.com]
[www.thingiverse.com]
[reprap.org]
[github.com]
doc assemblage: [reprap.org]
NEW: Forum smartfriendz: [smartraptalk.smartfriendz.com]
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MrDoctorDIV
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 16, 2014 01:02PM
Quote
pbrstreetgang
No more of Adrian Bowyer's pseudo-science. It's just white noise & soap operas as far as I'm concerned.

Adrian had a dream, a vision. He saw what they had at the time, saw what they were capable of, and made a goal. Pseudo-science? Where's the science, and where's the fake part? It's not a science, it's a goal. Wanting a dream job and working for it isn't labeled as a pseudo-science, and this isn't far different.

Quote
pbrstreetgang
Seriously, who cares if it's 3d printed or not.

I, for one, do. Who cares if getting where you want to go in life means collage or not? It's a potential step along the way, and decides in large part what the other steps will be.


The history was a good reading. I haven't seen it anywhere, so it's my first taste of the original RepRap. Much appreciated.

Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus
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Feign
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 16, 2014 02:23PM
I'm gonna echo DrDIV, self-replecation is a goal in the same vein as getting to the moon was a goal. The value isn't in the destination so much as the advances made on the journey. Unfortunately, you can't sell a journey to most people, so you have to find a valuable (or at least interesting) destination. If buying a few bolts, nuts, motors and a control board is all it takes to get a second 3D printer once I have that first one, I'd say the goal was worth pursuing already, and I'm excited to see where it will take us even further down the line.

Personally, I think that dragging the capitalist/communist philosophy into the conversation is a huge mistake (though I'm as capitalist as you'll find, and I love the philosophy behind RepRap.) 3D printing is about using the minimum of something that has very little value (raw plastic and a bit of electricity) and making value. No matter your philosophies on what to do with it afterwards, making value, essentially gaining wealth without removing it from somewhere else, is always good.
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Traumflug
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 17, 2014 04:37AM
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smartfriendz
or buy a product ?

Certainly possible, but not scope of RepRap.

P.S.: ... and not cheap either.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2014 04:39AM by Traumflug.

Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
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smartfriendz
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 17, 2014 04:49AM
haha, you're right traumflug, was just kidding smiling smiley

IT happens often people not involved in open source projects are calling me about Smartraps and after a good talk, I strongly advice them to buy a ready made product ! not a reprap kit.
Usually they come back after a while to thank me because they where in fact just looking for a cheaper product , nothing more !

the Smartrap project

[smartfriendz.com]
[www.thingiverse.com]
[reprap.org]
[github.com]
doc assemblage: [reprap.org]
NEW: Forum smartfriendz: [smartraptalk.smartfriendz.com]
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Traumflug
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 17, 2014 04:49AM
Quote
Feign
Personally, I think that dragging the capitalist/communist philosophy into the conversation is a huge mistake

Matches my opinion.

Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
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smartfriendz
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 17, 2014 06:08AM
about capitalist/communist subject, i find it normal it comes back often in open source business model talks .
Even if it's not really that simple and certainly not adapted, it's true that in open source business model, you don't capitalize on the idea, you only sell your work ( service, products).
In the contrary, with "classical" business model, you get an idea, you protect it and try to capitalize the value of the idea, not the work you do. In my opinion, that's why this philosophy comes back every time there's a talk about open source project. i've seen it for 20 years in open source software threads smiling smiley

the Smartrap project

[smartfriendz.com]
[www.thingiverse.com]
[reprap.org]
[github.com]
doc assemblage: [reprap.org]
NEW: Forum smartfriendz: [smartraptalk.smartfriendz.com]
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smartfriendz
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 17, 2014 07:35AM
sorry , shouldn't talk about that smiling smiley especially in english .. too big for me i think .

in resume for me , reprap is not standstill smiling smiley only 0.1% of world population know its existence .. at the most , there's still room to progress i think.

the Smartrap project

[smartfriendz.com]
[www.thingiverse.com]
[reprap.org]
[github.com]
doc assemblage: [reprap.org]
NEW: Forum smartfriendz: [smartraptalk.smartfriendz.com]
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Feign
Re: Has REPRAP come to a standstill?
July 17, 2014 01:07PM
See from my view, open source makes sense in many cases because the cost-benefit balance of protecting IP is not terribly favorable these days and getting more and more grim as time goes by. When a company releases a product, their competitors have it reverse engineered within a week. Aggressively defending patents seems like a way to squeeze out competition on the surface, but in the long run it only drains money out of all parties involved without adding any kind of value to the product, making any kind of long-term profit, or benefiting the image of the defending company. So getting a patent costs money and time, protecting the patent cotst more money and time, and using the patent costs more money and often hurts sales more than the competition would have done if you never got the patent in the first place.

Basically, the idea of protecting your research is alive and well, but the idea of using the ponderous and often ineffective money-devouring machine that is the USPTO to do so is slowly losing viability.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2014 01:13PM by Feign.
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