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New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters

Posted by InspecteurSpie 
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
January 28, 2017 06:35PM
Quote
reifsnyderb
No joke. I am the guy who created the J-Head.

Sure! There are a lot of hot-end developers. Developing a hot-end, developing a hot-end that can be mass-produced, and then mass-producing the hot-end are three separate challenges.

My full argument is here---> [reprap.org]

Quote
Tomsand
Quote
reifsnyderb
Keep buying the e3d knock-offs. This will drive e3d out of business and be the end of any more serious Reprap hot-end development. If the developers aren't supported, development stops.

Haha, that was a good joke. Dude, there is not only E3D that develops reprap hotends. To be honest, there is a ton of other great genuine extruder designs out there.

Thank you for that Reif. I'm looking into a design and welcome such information. It won't be "crone ploof" of course, but that isn't the idea - I'm aiming for something that isn't copyable because it's actually cheaper than China can make it. winking smiley

Tough specification to meet, but that's the only way I see of addressing the issue. If it's not economically viable to copy for export, they won't (unless they are stupid, of course, which hasn't been my experience of Chinese people generally).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2017 06:36PM by DragonFire.
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
January 28, 2017 07:34PM
Quote
DragonFire
Quote
reifsnyderb
No joke. I am the guy who created the J-Head.

Sure! There are a lot of hot-end developers. Developing a hot-end, developing a hot-end that can be mass-produced, and then mass-producing the hot-end are three separate challenges.

My full argument is here---> [reprap.org]

Quote
Tomsand
Quote
reifsnyderb
Keep buying the e3d knock-offs. This will drive e3d out of business and be the end of any more serious Reprap hot-end development. If the developers aren't supported, development stops.

Haha, that was a good joke. Dude, there is not only E3D that develops reprap hotends. To be honest, there is a ton of other great genuine extruder designs out there.

Thank you for that Reif. I'm looking into a design and welcome such information. It won't be "crone ploof" of course, but that isn't the idea - I'm aiming for something that isn't copyable because it's actually cheaper than China can make it. winking smiley

Tough specification to meet, but that's the only way I see of addressing the issue. If it's not economically viable to copy for export, they won't (unless they are stupid, of course, which hasn't been my experience of Chinese people generally).
Stupid no but highly deceitful and very closed society.

Reif is a good guy who made a damn good hot end and a lot of people were watching, and hoping, his (Rubium I believe or something that started with an R) new J-Head would rock even more but China killed that. Let us remember Reif is basically some guy in his garage with a nice lathe and some rather nice machines to make this stuff and what he managed to pull off back in that day was remarkable but time marches on. He was trying but China killed him just like WalMart has done to every business within a 2 mile radius of them. I sort of think of WalMart as a Chinese tentacle so we may not be able to see the global picture of what China has done to the world but we can see, if we look, what WalMart does at the local level. Of course this is off the subject but WalMart is now going to sell cars so I guess a lot of dealerships will be the next thing to shut down. :/

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2017 07:34PM by Dark Alchemist.


_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
January 31, 2017 11:56AM
Hello,

Well, I am not entirely dead, yet. :-) I am still making J-Heads and selling them at [www.hotends.com] However, sales are very low at the moment.

I do have new, unreleased, versions of the J-Head.

Best Regards,

Brian
kr_
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
February 05, 2017 05:59PM
Quote
Dark Alchemist
the first thing I did was unscrew the heatbreak where I found, to my surprise, a teflon tube going into the heater block. /facepalm From now on it is original for me again but the reason there is a teflon tube like that is because it is easier to manufacture AND the inner bore is so horrible that if it didn't have a teflon tube nothing would be able to get through. No, the Chinese have never understood polishing and to polish something like this would cost them more all around so they make garbage.

My Chinese E3D like "garbage" is working pretty well winking smiley It never jammed with PLA but it wasn't working out of the box like the real one would. I had to disassemble it and remount it properly without any gap between the nozzle and the heat break. Same for the bownden tube side, it has to be pushed all the way in. I also had to put PTFE tape on the treads to avoid melted plastic leaks. There are 2 important things to run E3Ds : its fan has to be on, always. And retract must be kept small, about 4 mm max.

I'm pretty happy the oh so shocking Teflon is there in the heatbreak! I had a hard time printing Filaflex, it caused jamming. Then I bought the genuine polished heatbreak, the one that come with candies smiling smiley but the result was worse, more friction than the PTFE. So I redesigned my extruder with PTFE going all the way to the MK8 Drive Gear. It solved my problem.

I just noticed they now sell it with a silicone sock for the heated block. This helps a lot for printing small parts. I made mine with self sticking silicone tape.
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
February 05, 2017 07:13PM
I use a Chinese e3d v6 clone, it IS made using blueprints, however there are some minor differences in dimensions because of the use of manual machines. ( i have 2 original e3d's as well)
I bought a direct and a bowden clone, the 3mm bowden clone was not usable since it was made to specs of a 1.75 mm bowden,they don't know the 3mm bowden uses the normal m6 (because 3mm uses a large teflon tube so it doesn't fit in the heatbreak).
They paid me the full amount of the bowden v6 back and i didn't have to send it back.
Now i use the heatsink of a previous e3d clone ( which is a direct version but with a thread for a bowden coupler on top) with the direct version i bought. . I use it bowden with retract on 7mm, works perfect.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2017 07:26PM by Govahnator.
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
February 06, 2017 01:00AM
Quote
kr_
Quote
Dark Alchemist
the first thing I did was unscrew the heatbreak where I found, to my surprise, a teflon tube going into the heater block. /facepalm From now on it is original for me again but the reason there is a teflon tube like that is because it is easier to manufacture AND the inner bore is so horrible that if it didn't have a teflon tube nothing would be able to get through. No, the Chinese have never understood polishing and to polish something like this would cost them more all around so they make garbage.

My Chinese E3D like "garbage" is working pretty well winking smiley It never jammed with PLA but it wasn't working out of the box like the real one would. I had to disassemble it and remount it properly without any gap between the nozzle and the heat break. Same for the bownden tube side, it has to be pushed all the way in. I also had to put PTFE tape on the treads to avoid melted plastic leaks. There are 2 important things to run E3Ds : its fan has to be on, always. And retract must be kept small, about 4 mm max.

I'm pretty happy the oh so shocking Teflon is there in the heatbreak! I had a hard time printing Filaflex, it caused jamming. Then I bought the genuine polished heatbreak, the one that come with candies smiling smiley but the result was worse, more friction than the PTFE. So I redesigned my extruder with PTFE going all the way to the MK8 Drive Gear. It solved my problem.

I just noticed they now sell it with a silicone sock for the heated block. This helps a lot for printing small parts. I made mine with self sticking silicone tape.
I have some filaments, and some I want to use, that requires 250-270c and you aren't going to use anything with a Teflon (PTFE) tube going into that heatblock as it will burn. I know this as the tube in the real J-Head at 255c made the tube end black and that tube doesn't go as far in as this Chinese knockoff.


_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.
kr_
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
February 06, 2017 05:18PM
Quote
Dark Alchemist
I know this as the tube in the real J-Head at 255c made the tube end black and that tube doesn't go as far in as this Chinese knockoff.

It's surprising it got black. Maybe some are lower quality. Teflon's max operating temperature is 260°C according to a few datasheets and it had a memory effect at 350°C
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
February 06, 2017 06:46PM
Quote
kr_
Quote
Dark Alchemist
I know this as the tube in the real J-Head at 255c made the tube end black and that tube doesn't go as far in as this Chinese knockoff.

It's surprising it got black. Maybe some are lower quality. Teflon's max operating temperature is 260°C according to a few datasheets and it had a memory effect at 350°C
That I do not know but I do know but was simple enough to replace as I found it like that after I had my ball bearing episode.

Something I do find odd about the real J-Head and that is it uses Peek and peek has a Tg of 143c and I am printing at 235-250c all of the time so you would think it would get very soft. The melting point of Peek is ~343c so another 100c, roughly, before that but still I am right in the middle of Tg and Melted Peek.

Anyway, the blacked PTFE tube probably happened in a couple of prints I did around 250c-255c because at one point Marlin let it get to 260c before I shut it down and stuck the parameter to 252c for safety. Either way it showed me PTFE near a heat zone is bad.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2017 06:59PM by Dark Alchemist.


_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
February 08, 2017 03:24PM
do you have link for good clone?
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
February 08, 2017 03:36PM
Well what I should say is yes: [e3d-online.com]

They are worth the money.

But if I was on a tight budget or just starting out and wasn't sure I wanted to spend that much, I have had very nearly as good results (with a bit of time spent fixing the problems) with hotends sold by BigTreeTech on ebay/aliexpress. But expect to have to do a bit of work and then occasionally have issues which you won't have with genuine e3d. I bought clones when I started out, then decided to try genuine and wouldn't go back.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
kr_
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
February 08, 2017 06:17PM
Quote
Dark Alchemist

Something I do find odd about the real J-Head and that is it uses Peek and peek has a Tg of 143c and I am printing at 235-250c all of the time so you would think it would get very soft. The melting point of Peek is ~343c so another 100c, roughly, before that but still I am right in the middle of Tg and Melted Peek.

Anyway, the blacked PTFE tube probably happened in a couple of prints I did around 250c-255c because at one point Marlin let it get to 260c before I shut it down and stuck the parameter to 252c for safety. Either way it showed me PTFE near a heat zone is bad.

I think Wikipedia's value is wrong. Manufacturers show 240°C, which is much more realistic
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
February 09, 2017 01:35AM
Quote
kr_
Quote
Dark Alchemist

Something I do find odd about the real J-Head and that is it uses Peek and peek has a Tg of 143c and I am printing at 235-250c all of the time so you would think it would get very soft. The melting point of Peek is ~343c so another 100c, roughly, before that but still I am right in the middle of Tg and Melted Peek.

Anyway, the blacked PTFE tube probably happened in a couple of prints I did around 250c-255c because at one point Marlin let it get to 260c before I shut it down and stuck the parameter to 252c for safety. Either way it showed me PTFE near a heat zone is bad.

I think Wikipedia's value is wrong. Manufacturers show 240°C, which is much more realistic
For which the PTFE or the Peek? Is that the Tg or the melting stage?


_______
I await Skynet and my last vision will be of a RepRap self replicating the robots that is destroying the human race.
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
October 16, 2018 07:09PM
Here
Attachments:
open | download - Capture.JPG (22.4 KB)
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
October 25, 2018 05:02AM
Interesting read.

Having 'making things difficult to copy' as a development goal strikes as sharpening the executioners axe before you drop your head into the block. I understand what you mean but you are also making it more difficult for you to make and sale, increasing rejects in manufacturing and cost, cost which will ultimately need to be paid for by the consumer. Rapid development is also good, but people who buy in to an expensive product will expect support for a long time. You could easily end up needing to support many generations of obsolete designs. Granted I've never designed and sold a product but from an outsiders perspective making it as cheap to manufacture as possible, while maintaining performance would seem the best way to tackle people profiting from cheap manufacturing costs?

I like the approach of one company offering a premium and cut back product but can't offer opinions of different heads as I've only used reprap (ormerod - pre-quick fit), E3D V6, and Up +2 heads.

Edit: Correcting phone screen/fat fingers related typos!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2018 06:54AM by WesBrooks.
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
October 25, 2018 01:52PM
Have had a E3D v6 copy. worked ok fo a while on my first heavily modded 3D printer. Anet A8. Don't remember what broke. But I went to buy a original V6.
Emidietly I saw way better print quality.
In my mind. I would never switch back to aa clone. Not worth the hassle, because original is not that expensive. Maby 500hr of printing (moved it to another printer after giving up on A8). Still working like a charm.

Worth every penny.
Re: New E3D V6 (From China) Clogs as soon as PLA Enters
October 25, 2018 04:53PM
Disassemble and re-assemble correctly. Worked for me (after months of pain).
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