PEI vs. BuildTak vs. PrintBite

Does anyone have experience with two or more of these surfaces? How do they compare?

Thanks!

Check this thread, although it is not a complete comparison of the three build surfaces that you mentioned. They are mentioned and geared more towards PrintBite. I would say that this build surface does look promising.
[forums.reprap.org]

I have a printer with a PEI surface, and another printer with a PrintBite surface. I haven't tried BuildTak.

PrintBite works really well for me for PLA and PETG. Prints adhere well, don't pop off while printing, and are very easy to remove once cool (they mostly aren't attached at all). The bottom surface of the parts is shiny.
However for ABS I found that I needed to get the print surface super hot to get ABS to adhere properly. I had real problems with very thin walls, even with a brim. I felt that I needed to get the surface hotter than my bed could go (130 degrees on the heatbed, which worked out to about 110-115 degrees on the surface of the PrintBite).
Despite my experiences, this surface does work very well for lots of other people.


PEI just seems to work really well for any filament that I've thrown at it. You do need to prise the parts off when the bed is cool, but a small spudger works well for this. You don't need nearly as high a temperature compared to PrintBite (105 on the heatbed, which is about 95 on the surface). This means a lot less waiting around for the print bed to heat up. I have no complaints at all about PEI.


If you never print small, thin, tricky parts in ABS, then PrintBite is a great surface. For me, however, I'm replacing my PrintBite surface with PEI.


Also check out this thread:
[forums.reprap.org]

Haven't tried buildtak or pei but have 2 printers with printbite. With ABS as long as you get it hot enough (120 deg C on the bed) and lay down a fairly hot first layer (250+) it sticks well and stays stuck until it cools below 80 deg C or so and then self releases. I'm not sure it can overcome all warp, heated build volume is still needed for long thin parts with high infill, but compared to hairspray/gluestick/tape of any kind it's way less hassle. It is very durable, doesn't burn or scortch and isn't damaged by nozzle contact unless repeated and violent. I use nozzle to bed probing on one printer with a hot nozzle and have no wear on the printbite after 4 months. It is quite reasonable and can be custom cut by Jason who sells it and now comes with suitable adhesive attached. I read pei sticks better to abs but releasing it is more problematic.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

A lot of people have dismissed Kapton as "not working", or use all sorts of glue/potions to get their prints to stick to it, but I have been printing ABS on clean Kapton for years and it has worked well, sometimes too well. When people have problems with prints letting go of Kapton, I suspect there are other problems such as uneven or inadequate heating and unlevel or warped surface that they are not addressing. That tells me that reviews of different materials are all but useless unless the test bed resembles your own. I have found few reviews of materials where the beds come close to matching mine which I know to be evenly and adequately heated, flat, and level.

My Kapton supply is running low and I'd like to try PEI as its performance is legendary, but I have no idea if I can trust any of its reviews. Does it work any better than Kapton? The only thing that could make it better than Kapton for me is releasing the prints when they cool. I suppose I'm going to have to just gamble on a piece of PEI and see what happens.

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

Kapton for ABS works perfectly for me, I was gifted a sheet of Buildtak for use on the FFCP.... it lasted about twice as long as one application of Kapton and gave me no reason to switch. I've been running Blue tape on the MegaHexDelta for PLA with no issues once i dialed in Z0 accurately

@DD I have some PET Green tape on order to try out and see how it goes.

I can see why the various new surfaces appeal on smaller beds but they are in my opinion damn expensive on bigger beds.

I have used Buildtak on non heated beds : Acrylic, aluminium and wood.
I have a printbite surface that I am starting to use on a heated bed (borosilicate glass).

The major advantage of Buildtak is that it gives good adhesion on a non heated bed provided the underlying support is insulating.
However, for the Buildtak to adhere, it needs to be heated by the filament you deposit on (and also by the radiation of the hotend).
I had to make quite wide traces on first layer to have it to adhere. I ended up having my first layer 0.8mm wide, 0.35mm thick and first layer speed at 15 to 20 mm/sec. The filament temperature of this first layer shall be higher than the other layers. Don't hesitate to tune it up significantly (+20°C). An increased temperature for the second layer may be of benefit, but I don’t know of a slicer which does that. Sometimes, I was doing that manually.
The first layer shall not be 'crushed' on the surface, which drives to problems

If you somewhat preheat it with a spotlight, you can even do ABS parts on a BuildTak without heat bed.
PETG always worked very well.

However there are constraints:
What make the Buildtak adhesive is that it is heated by the deposited filament, so if the Buildtak is glued on an aluminium bed, it is absolutely impossible to have any adhesion without heating the bed. I made an aluminium bed on the Fisher delta, and it was only usable if heating the surface with a spotlight to a temperature of 50°C. Unpratical with a lot of side effects (thats heat all the printer and drive to deformations)
It worked on the acrylic bed of the Fisher and the melaminated wood bottom of my ‘Lily’.
If your bed is non heated, you may install your printer in a reasonably warm room and preserve the surface from cooling. Spotlight on print is a good option.

What are the problems :

• If you have an incident with your hotend which stay pushed against the surface a few seconds, you will have a nice hole shaped as your nozzle.
• Mechanical sensing. I sense the surface level by pushing the hotend on it. The Buildtak shall no be tested with hotend at temperature (see above) and the instructions tells to test with a cold hotend. That simply does not work because of the unavoidable blobs on the hotend and also the fact that your hotend expand while heated, so a cold calibration is unaccurate. I ended up settling to make the calibration at 155°C, which seems ok for the Buildtak and calibrate with reasonnable accuracy. You shall always remember not to calibrate while hot. Better do a calibration macro waiting the cool if your firmware allow it.
• Removing the parts. It can sometimes be extremely difficult to remove the parts and that often drive to tear the surface. On the very first use of my actual surface (this was not my first Buildtak) I had small 3mm holes, and on one hole a part of the surface approximately the hole diameter get teared while I was removing my part. I was very upset to tear an absolutely new surface... You don’t want to use metallic tools to remove your parts, but you may not have the choice. Recently, I tested a new brand of PETG, which for some reason was crushed too much at first layer. It was absolutely impossible to remove the layer, I had to cut it with a cutter. Very delicate as the Buildtak is very easily cut. I should have tried to build at least a few layers to help the removal, but a bad layer prevent continuation. Also, when you try to remove a very adhesive part, it unglues the surface locally, creating a ‘bubble’, which if you don’t care, will be cut by your removal tool, even if plastic. In conclusion, The Buildtak shall be considered as a consumable. Depending the surface of your bed and your use, you will after some time have expensed a significant amount of money, which could have paid a big chunk of a heat bed, which will have a lot of other added benefits. So, better to upgrade to a heated bed as soon as possible.

There is no point using a buildtak on a heat bed. Use glue or hairspray (on glass)

I have recently bought a printbite for a heat bed machine, in the intent to test nylon, polycarbonate and other difficult materials, as for ABS, PETG or PLA, I was ok with hairspray or glue on glass.

I first tested with ABS. I had to heat up at very high temperature to get good adhesion, say surface (measured) at more than 120°C. My printer is enclosed and so the temperature somewhat climbed, which is good for ABS. However, my bed temperature was not very stable and I have tuned it up too high. I ended up cooking my effector and duct (which were in PETG) and had to replace them. The ironic part is that I was printing an effector in ABS for better temperature resistance, but I was not able to finished it (then printed on the other printer on the non heated Buildtak, which was useful, after all).
There was a few things I did not thought first :

• When printing ABS, you don’t cool at all, so the part duct is submitted to radiation from the bed. My duct is at 2mm from the bed, so very exposed
• The radiative coefficient of the printbite is much higher than a glass bed (I checked while playing with the IR sensor and a surface sensor)
• The printbite is insulating the top of your bed, so with a glass bed, it delayed somewhat the heating and I got quite large temperature overshoot. So I recommend using PID instead of Bang-bang control, which drive to a much more limited overshoot (2°C instead of 10~15°C)

The insulating effect of the printbite increase the difference between the temperature on your thermistor and the real surface temperature compared to a naked bed (by ~10°C, so total difference may exceed 20°C). If using an IR thermometer don’t forget to adjust the radiative coefficient as printbite is quite radiative.

A last point. Manufacturer recommend to NOT use Printbite on a borosilicate glass as it does not have any thermal expansion, while printbite do expand, creating stress which will bend or even brake the borosilicate glass. I was not aware of that and glued the printbite on my glass. Hopefully, my boro glass is quite thick (5mm) and stronger than most. I have tested the bed (non printing, just to see the behaviour) up to 150°C (measured on surface, so ~170°C on thermistor), so I think it is ok on a high thickness glass.

A last note (another...), instead of what is told in forum, printbite is not very difficult to cut with good scissors and I made a round bed from a square surface in less than 15 minutes.

It is a bit too early for me to draw conclusions on the printbite but at least:

• You shall have a mean to accurately measure your surface temperature.
• Your bed control shall be stable.
• You shall thoroughly clean the surface (acetone) after touching it with your fingers.
• Don't use on borosilicate glass (by manufacturer recommandation)

Its main interest may be for nylon or other delicate materials, but I have not yet tested them.

Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2016 09:51AM by PRZ.

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Pierre

- Safety [reprap.org]
- Embedded help system for Duet and RepRap Firmware [forums.reprap.org]
- Enclosed delta printers Lily [rouzeau.net] and Lily Big [rouzeau.net]
- OpenScad delta printer simulator [github.com]
- 3D printing on my site [www.rouzeau.net]

Quote
PRZ
An increased temperature for the second layer may be of benefit, but I don’t know of a slicer which does that. Sometimes, I was doing that manually.

Simplify3d can do this.

I'd say printbite works best glued to aluminium to ensure quick and reasonably even heating.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

I've used all 3.

PEI works great but you need to learn that the level and Z axis height is critical to be set properly and Z axis height will be different for ABS and PLA. This is my go to bed material.

BuildTak, it works a lot like PEI but I destroyed it way too easy when removing parts. I went through 5 sheets in 3 weeks then went back to PEI. My PEI lasted 2 years.

PrintBite I tried and tried to get this to work but just could not get ABS to stick reliably despite following instructions exactly. I know many have said it works great but I just could not get it to work properly. My very first print was probably the best and I had high hopes but after the first print I just always had ABS peeling off the surface mid print (and I have a heated build chamber). Now I did not try it with PLA only ABS.

I have a TAZ 4 converted to a TAZ 5, I have been printing for 4 years now (2 printers) and I printed 95% ABS 4% PLA 1% other

PEI works great for me. I sand the surface with 600 grit paper to increase the adhesion for ABS, and to give a nice perfect smooth but not shiny texture on the bottom.

For ABS, the PEI needs to be at a surface temperature right around the glass transition temperature of ABS, which is optimal. The parts don't pop off instantly when they are cool, but can be removed without much effort. The surface is resilient, so there is no fear in damaging it. If the surface becomes scuffed up, a quick sanding buffs out the marks.

I can print 250mm+ large flat ABS prints, and as long as the bed levelling is done right, the prints stick perfectly. No brim needed, no curling whatsoever.

I've used buildtak, and buildtak cannot come close to the performance of PEI, because buildtak needs to be glued down with the adhesive that they supply, which is not strong enough itself to resist the curling forces of some larger prints. The buildtak peels up itself, still adhered to the ABS.

PEI also works amazingly perfectly for PLA every time, at between 50-60 surface temperature. Again, right near the glass transition temp, so this is ideal.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2016 05:25PM by n8bot.

Pierre, your 5mm boro should be ok, ie thick enough, ive had two reports of boro glass breaking, one many months ago, one more recently. Whether this was due to PB / Boro CoE differences or not i really dont know. If the glass had sharp edges, it might have broken under any circumstance. The incidences were very far apart (isolated), but after the recent one I changed recommendations to be on safe side.

FWIW I use 3mm mirror tile, and I have never had a piece break on me with PB

It sounds like the general consensus is:

PEI is great, except for the occasional difficulty detaching.

BuildTak is like PEI (when heated; I do have a heated bed) except cheaper and easier to damage.

PrintBite does not adhere as strongly, especially to ABS.

Anyone disagree?

the_digital_dentist:

It is likely that with a very-high-temp bed and a heated chamber, Kapton would work for ABS on my machine. However, my bed only gets to about 80C, and if I tried to enclose it the printer would soften and deform (it has PLA parts).

Also, I rarely use ABS, because of its tendency to warp and delaminate (because, again, I can't use a heated chamber). So, I need something that will work well with PLA and PETG.

Quote
DjDemonD

Quote
PRZ
An increased temperature for the second layer may be of benefit, but I don’t know of a slicer which does that. Sometimes, I was doing that manually.

Simplify3d can do this.

.

Slic3r can do this as well as modify most of the other settings. Look at the "Load Modifier" in the object properties.

For Slic3R , how does it work ? have I to load a cube of a given height, and so , I will be able to change the properties for the part section contained in the cube ?
Is there any documentation somewhere ?

Quote
etfrench

Quote
DjDemonD

Quote
PRZ
An increased temperature for the second layer may be of benefit, but I don’t know of a slicer which does that. Sometimes, I was doing that manually.

Simplify3d can do this.

.

Slic3r can do this as well as modify most of the other settings. Look at the "Load Modifier" in the object properties.

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Pierre

- Safety [reprap.org]
- Embedded help system for Duet and RepRap Firmware [forums.reprap.org]
- Enclosed delta printers Lily [rouzeau.net] and Lily Big [rouzeau.net]
- OpenScad delta printer simulator [github.com]
- 3D printing on my site [www.rouzeau.net]

This might be what you're after:

[slic3r.org]

If you're changing settings based on Z height, it helps to create models for each section starting at Z0 even if you're not changing the parameters in a particular section. If your CAD program doesn't align the blocks correctly, you can use NetFabb to do the alignment.

Quote
epicepee
It sounds like the general consensus is:

PEI is great, except for the occasional difficulty detaching.

BuildTak is like PEI (when heated; I do have a heated bed) except cheaper and easier to damage.

PrintBite does not adhere as strongly, especially to ABS.

Anyone disagree?

An ABS part cannot be detached from a hot PrintBite surface. It may be that a PrintBite surface needs to be a little hotter than PEI for good first layer adhesion to occur. This is because they are fundamentally two different materials.

PrintBite is a thermoset material which will tend to harden with heat when it is processed and is not near its Tg during print time conditions, whereas PEI is a thermoplastic that naturally softens with heat, and is approaching its Tg point on a hot heatbed.

The adhesion of ABS to PEI occurs because the ABS gets (partially) fused (melted) into the PEI. This is why it can be hard to detach ABS from PEI when cold. It is common for users of PEI to reco the surface by sanding it now and again due to his behaviour. Difficult detachment is likely a bit more frequent than occasional. PEI also does not perform well with Nylon or PC.

The Adhesion of ABS to PrintBite occurs in such a way that it does not fuse. As the bed and the part cool down at the end of the print the different rates of contraction cause the printed part to self release with an audible and some what satisfying "crack"

PrintBite will not need sanding leaving the bottom of the part with a very glossy finish. If you dont touch the bed it will also not need cleaning or prepping.

Regarding Buildtak, it is more of a consumable material that needs replenishing due to its fragility (expensive). I also tested PC onto Buildtak, it became a permanent bond.

Summary - all three materials have pros and cons. PrintBite could arguably be the most durable, compatible with more materials, better bottom surface appearance, less maintenance.

Trying to be objective rather than subjective, of course I could be called biased. Hopefully a fair assessment however.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2016 10:46PM by Mutley3D.

The glass transition temperature of PEI is in the neighborhood of 200 degrees+, and does not at all become soft when used at ABS printing temperatures. I haven't taken it above 115, though. I've had no need to.

It is also not difficult to remove parts from PEI. The parts adhere completely, and are much more difficult to remove when hot than when they cool down. A large ABS piece that is adhered well can be hard to start, but once a tiny section of the print becomes separated, the print just pops off all at once. With buildtak, it's a continued prying process, whereas with PEI you just need to get under the print momentarily to pop it up. This usually can be done with no damage to the first layer, but sometimes one single line of extrusion gets a bit of damage.

I believe the PrintBite material is similar to garrolite, which people have been using for a while for nylon. Sounds like it might be a good choice for Nylon or PC, but I'd much rather use PEI for PLA or ABS.

To avoid misunderstanding - I said it approaches, not reaches its Tg. ie, because it is a thermoplastic. The point at which 240c filament hits it, will push that isolated point of contact much closer to its Tg.

To remove the print from PrintBite, just pick it up as if it was placed on the surface beforehand. No prying, no layer damage.

Garolite is a very different material to PrintBite.

Its a shame we can't come up with an aluminium backing plate for these surfaces which is flat (to a reasonable tolerance) and onto which each of the surfaces can come bonded. This can then be clipped to the printer, printed upon and then removed with ease or swapped for another surface when required. It seems PEI and Printbite both have their uses, differences in method of operation and differences in cost, what's difficult is the need to effectively permanently bond them to your print bed (aluminium is much better for this than a layer of insulating glass between the chosen surface and heatbed), meaning that swapping surfaces is difficult.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Quote
epicepee
It sounds like the general consensus is:

PEI is great, except for the occasional difficulty detaching.

BuildTak is like PEI (when heated; I do have a heated bed) except cheaper and easier to damage.

PrintBite does not adhere as strongly, especially to ABS.

Anyone disagree?

I have no experience of the others, so take of this what you want but printbite adheres extremely strongly to ABS. Once you have tuned the machine in to work well with printbite, you would likely break glass trying to remove a print when at temperature. The only time I've had such strong adherence before is when using abs slurry on kapton, which obviously just stays stuck forever and is horrible to pry off.

Here is a rather nice print I had complete last night, orange ABS, completely hollow. Printed on printbite @ 260c hot end, 110c bed. dropped to 240c and 105c after 1st layer.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2016 05:54AM by Origamib.

That's a nice print, but in my experience a hollow model is the least likely to lift at the corners, its the infill that generates the lateral contraction forces that lift the corners of long narrow parts. Circular models with low/no infill is not such a risk for lifting. Try printing Angus from maker's muse Warpinator 5000 its a real test. I can get it to stick on printbite which I have dialled in quite well, almost the whole part stays stuck down but around 10mm lifts at each end. It is a fierce test of adhesion though.
warpinator5000.stl

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2016 10:53AM by DjDemonD.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Quote
DjDemonD
Its a shame we can't come up with an aluminium backing plate for these surfaces which is flat (to a reasonable tolerance) and onto which each of the surfaces can come bonded. This can then be clipped to the printer, printed upon and then removed with ease or swapped for another surface when required. It seems PEI and Printbite both have their uses, differences in method of operation and differences in cost, what's difficult is the need to effectively permanently bond them to your print bed (aluminium is much better for this than a layer of insulating glass between the chosen surface and heatbed), meaning that swapping surfaces is difficult.

Although I agree that aluminium would be preferable because of its thermal conductivity, I use glass for exactly this purpose and I don't find it a problem. I just need to set the bed temperature about 6C higher when printing PLA and 12C higher when printing ABS, to allow for the temperature drop across the glass. I clip the glass to an aluminum heat spreader, and the heater is underneath that.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
DjDemonD
That's a nice print, but in my experience a hollow model is the least likely to lift at the corners, its the infill that generates the lateral contraction forces that lift the corners of long narrow parts. Circular models with low/no infill is not such a risk for lifting. Try printing Angus from maker's muse Warpinator 5000 its a real test. I can get it to stick on printbite which I have dialled in quite well, almost the whole part stays stuck down but around 10mm lifts at each end. It is a fierce test of adhesion though.
[attachment 79375 warpinator5000.stl]

Has anyone gotten warpinator5000 to print with -0- lift with any of these surfaces?

I've been able to get full attach of Angus' Warpinator5000 ABS 80% infill w/no lift using Xtreme gluestick slurry on Glass, 50C amb. But in general, Xtreme gluestick slurry is killing me because of glass chips. Had some luck soaking parts with water and heating slightly until they release. Stubborn parts can take hours. Glass bed is a consumable.

Raising the 1st layer temp on Printbite to 120C resulted in 3mm lifted edges, while the center of the part was fused to the bed, even when totally cooled. Had to reheat the bed to full temp an slowly pry off the semi molten center section.

Is ABS juice or glue stick any good on Printbite? Looks like a durable enough surface.

I have not had luck with PEI.

Have heard Wolfbite pulls glass chips.

What about Magigoo?

I've got 2 warpinator 5000s printed on printbite. No brim, no raft in abs. One printed with no special tricks just printed direct onto the printbite. The other was in a chamber at a modest 38 deg C with a quick wipe with very thin abs slurry.

This does improve adhesion for abs quite a lot with printbite, and whilst I used to think "but surely the idea is not to have to use any glues" you are going to wipe down your bed to clean it anyway, just wipe it with acetone with a small amount of transparent abs in it rather than just pure acetone.

You can print a warpinator in abs on pei, or a surface like AndOrNots own brand surface (which is pei I think) at 90 deg C, but getting it off after is very difficult even at room temp. This is why I still like printbite, parts come off with less drama when it cools down. It's my daily drive.

If I need mega adhesion I use Pei with abs at 100 degree but expect a mission to get the part off.

---

Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

@DjDemonD Actually quite exciting...existence proof that a Warpinator 5000 can be printed No lift, no brim, no raft in ABS on Printbite.

Sorry to have to ask, but can you share all the specifics so I can duplicate? This is kind of a holy grail. Brand of ABS & slicer config & settings? mostly on S3D these days.

The ABS juice helped immensely on Printbite, but I am still not there. Did a half dozen runs last night using MakerGeeks ABS. Tried 50% infill, no brim, 2 perimeters, 1st layer 120/260, speed < 10mm/sec. Remaining layers 250C normal speeds. Passive chamber heating ramps to 50C. Evidence of lifting started between 2-3mm Z. 1st layer squish looks solid. If 2nd layer bed temp is < 100C, getting clean lifting. 100-110C the ABS is in a semi-molten state and getting a gooey/stringy lift from the bed. Are you running fan off? I've got some eSun and Hatchbox on hand to try as alternatives. Hopefully you used an ABS available on Prime.

Okay so no name black ABS from go-inks (the white one was printed about a year ago so no idea although I was using quite a bit of Excelvan which is not available anymore - which is a great shame).

Using Prusa slic3r for the black one probably 2 perimeters and no infill, to try to minimise the amount of material causing contraction as it cools.

Light wash of abs juice really quite dilute.

Here they are:


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2017 04:16PM by DjDemonD.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Dilute 0.5 grams of "dental acrylic powder" into 15 grams of ABS juice and then tell us the result... Intructions:

Add the powder on the juice and stir / shake vigorously. Let stand for 2 hours and then stir / shake again. It will be ready to use.

It gives good results even on a glass table. But it should be spread on the heated desk at about 45 degrees to repel moisture that can spoil the effectiveness of the film.

Tried the ABS juice, Kapton tape, Buildtak and PEI. I think PEI is the best as I don't have to replace it after several uses like Buildtak or Kapton tape. I've been very successful at printing large parts without ABS detaching from the bed. I use PEI on both my printers and have no problems at all. I set y temperature at 115 C.

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Printers: Heavily redesigned TwoUp with E3D V6 and Robo3D R1+ with Chimera/Cyclops