Extruding Nylon

I just printed the best quality I have ever printed with Nylon . The part was as long as my bed and the cardboard still held it down easily. Only problem is the cardboard stuff is stuck all over the back of the part, so I am soaking it in water to try and get it to come off. If you guys have any other tips to get the paper off, that would be appreciated.

Anyways, the cardboard worked like a charm. I basically put a bunch of little screws with pieces of wood underneath around the bed to acts as clamps. I insert a piece of cardboard by sliding it underneath the clamps. Then I print on it, and slide the cardboard back out and remove the part. I am using a recycled cardboard shipping box for my cardboard supply. Each piece of cardboard can be used 2 or 3 times before being replaced.

I have attached my slic3r settings so you can take a look.
I am printing at 245 C with a bed temp of 120 C at 60 mm/s. The extrusion ratio is 0.8, and the filament diameter is 2.65 mm. There are no modifications to the extruder or any other parts of the printrbot, besides drilling holes in the y table for some screws.

I thought I would need to print at a higher temperature, but apparently 245 C gives plenty of adhesion between layers. The Nylon is really nice because it is flexible and very strong. I really need to get a hold of a camera and take some pictures .

A photo of the printed part would be useful. Thanks.

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galaxyman7
... I really need to get a hold of a camera and take some pictures .

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brnrd
A photo of the printed part would be useful. Thanks.

LOL!

I am glad it is working out for you. Does the cardboard get any dampness to it? It might be so minute you can't really tell until you have done a ton of prints on the same one. I still think it is helping like a dessicate.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2012 10:58AM by Dark Alchemist.

You might try clay-coated inkjet paper. The clay might be porous enough for it to stick well, yet it would dissolve in water.

Oh, nice suggestion to try. The clay would act like a dessicate even better.

I hope he tries this to see.

Oh, a question about the cardboard that I forgot to ask was is it corrugated or just a flat piece of cardboard?

Dark, you've mentioned your idea about some sort of dessicant effect before. Any chance you could explain what you're thinking there? The nylon needs to be very dry as it is or it forms steam bubbles, ruining the extrudate. The extrusion temperatures should drive most of the remaining moisture out... so I'm not seeing how a dessicant would affect things further, especially one that's being exposed to the moisture in the air?

Ok I uploaded a video of my setup and some of my printed parts. As you can see, the parts are very flexible, and are very high quality with hardly any blobbing or stringing.

[www.youtube.com]

@patbob
I have tried paper, and it is just too flexible to use. If I could get cardboard with a clay backing, I would try that.

@Dark

It is corrugated cardboard. It makes the bottom layer a bit bumpy, but nothing too noticible. As for making the bed a dessicant material, I agree with patbob. I do not see any reason why it needs to be a dessicant.

One thing I have seen on google is that you can boil lemon juice and paper will dissolve in it. I am guessing boling vinegar will have the same effect, although it will make the part smell nasty . The other option is Hydrochloric Acid. I don't even want to deal with that stuff. I think I will just spray paint over it haha.

@galaxyman7
You could try spraying the bed with adhesive to hold the paper down. Elmers makes one that can be used for making a temporary or permanent bond. The temp bond is like the sticky on a postit.. it might be just enough to hold the paper down but still be releasable when starting from an edge. Don't know how the heat would affect the glue though.

patbob Wrote:
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> Dark, you've mentioned your idea about some sort
> of dessicant effect before. Any chance you could
> explain what you're thinking there? The nylon
> needs to be very dry as it is or it forms steam
> bubbles, ruining the extrudate. The extrusion
> temperatures should drive most of the remaining
> moisture out... so I'm not seeing how a dessicant
> would affect things further, especially one that's
> being exposed to the moisture in the air?

Well, have you ever laid a damp towel on some corrugated cardboard or even a plain card stock? It acts like a wicking system and will drain the moist towel of all the wetness it has into itself until the cardboard reaches saturation. Sort of like a dessicate does.

edit: Fact is if you ever worked in a warehouse full of cardboard boxes you would see the company has to have the humidity at a certain range or else the boxes will turn damp and will mildew on you (they begin to stink first).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2012 09:49PM by Dark Alchemist.

I see what you're thinking, and "dessicant" isn't the proper term for it because by definition, that implies water. Also, many dessicants work without physically touching the material being dried. The work by sucking moisture out of the air, which gets replaced by moisture coming out of something else. Hopefully this helps you understand why people weren't connecting with what you were trying to say.

"Absorbtion" would be the better term to describe it -- that the molten nylon is being absorbed into the cardboard. And yes, this is the most likely scenario given the description.

So, it appears we're in search of some porous surface that the molten nylon can soak into, yet can be induced to conveniently release from it when we want it to. Moreover, it needs to be rigid enough to resist the mechanical stresses. Cardboard seems to be working well except for the release problem.

Well, I know cardboard absorbs moisture out of the air as well just not as bad as a true dessicate pack (damp cardboard in high humidity regions of the USA is why many warehouses are climate controlled with a heavy emphasis on the humidity range).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2012 01:02PM by Dark Alchemist.

Would plasterboard work?.

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Random Precision

Plasterboard as in Sheetrock? If so I don't think it has the moisture grabbing properties we are looking for.

Gypsum or plaster is used as moulds for clay and clay slip to absorb water, so may work, the paper cover may need tweeking though.

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Random Precision

Exactly what I meant as the outer covering is there and in homes they try to prevent moisture retention/grabbing due to black mold.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2012 09:04AM by Dark Alchemist.

I have lost the plot. Why do we want a bed material that absorbs water?

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

@nophead

They are saying that because cardboard absorbs water, it also "absorbs" the molten Nylon. Therefore if we can find a material that acts like cardboard, in that it will "absorb" the nylon, it will hopefully stick to that too. The thing is Nylon does stick to blue tape, but the warping force is too strong for the tape to hold it down. That has a waxy backing, so maybe if we could find a material that has a similar backing, but is stiff, that might work.

I think I will stick with cardboard because it is cheap and can be salvaged from boxes. For mechanical components I don't really care what the bottom looks like anyways. I have yet to try boiling the parts in lemon juice or vinegar, since my printrbot is currently out of commision. The chip went bad on the board and I am ordering a new one. SMT soldering! YAY!

Keep in mind that if you have a heated bed that can go up to 150 C warping will be a non issue for you anyways.

Maybe using blue tape and Generating a brim to hold it down and prevent warping...?

-Nick

If I'm understanding right the problem with tape is that the tape is peeling off the bed. A brim would help it stick to the tape better, but it's already sticking well enough to overpower the tape's adhesive.

galaxyman7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @nophead
>
> They are saying that because cardboard absorbs
> water, it also "absorbs" the molten Nylon.
> Therefore if we can find a material that acts like
> cardboard, in that it will "absorb" the nylon, it
> will hopefully stick to that too. The thing is
> Nylon does stick to blue tape, but the warping
> force is too strong for the tape to hold it down.
> That has a waxy backing, so maybe if we could find
> a material that has a similar backing, but is
> stiff, that might work.
>
> I think I will stick with cardboard because it is
> cheap and can be salvaged from boxes. For
> mechanical components I don't really care what the
> bottom looks like anyways. I have yet to try
> boiling the parts in lemon juice or vinegar, since
> my printrbot is currently out of commision. The
> chip went bad on the board and I am ordering a new
> one. SMT soldering! YAY!
>
> Keep in mind that if you have a heated bed that
> can go up to 150 C warping will be a non issue for
> you anyways.
OTS (off the subject): I have hated SMT since the first time I ran into it over 20 years ago. Need a HUGE magnifier and all sorts of special stuff I just never needed outside of special tasks. Better to just get a new piece because we live in the age of things being made by the "One Hung Lo" company that when one thing blows it takes out several other things (been there many a time).

Carry on.

Extent is right, the warping force is too large for the adhesive backing on the tape. It sticks great to the tape, but the tape can't stick to the bed that well.

@Dark
Luckily my dad is an electronics engineer . He's got all of the equipment to do that stuff at work. Strangely the rest of the board and the chip works except that one pin. A faulty product perhaps? I don't really understand how 5v could burn out one pin on a chip...

Hopefully it will just work when I put the new chip in. Otherwise I am going to have to buy another 130 dollar board from printrbot, and wait a few months for it . I can't wait that long.

A few months of waiting time? WOW, that is really unacceptable for any product you pay money for these days.

galaxyman7 Wrote:
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> Hopefully it will just work when I put the new
> chip in. Otherwise I am going to have to buy
> another 130 dollar board from printrbot, and wait
> a few months for it . I can't wait that long.

If you do need a new board get a Sanguinololu, or Azteeg X1, or something else. You can get those for about the same price (or less) with no wait time. They will run a Printrbot just fine.

I haven't read the entire thread, but have you tried carboard from a cerial box or the like?
Its not corrogated, its flat, and more rigged then the paper tried...
(cut the box open and use the inside, unprinted side)

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@Mogal

I think that would probably work. As long as the cardboard was thick enough to prevent lifting at the corners. I know that with paper, even if it was held at the corners, the corners of the part would still lift the paper up at those spots.

Anyways, the chip has arrived in the mail, so I am going to pick it up tomorrow and hopefully get printing again by wednesday.

So I got my chip soldered in, and now the temperature read right and everything. I started printing and it looked good until I started getting periods of non-extrusion where the extruder gears looked like they were seizing up. I was so worried that the nozzle wasn't getting up to temperature that I totally forgot to look for the obvious....
The set screw on the extruder gear wasn't tighted down all the way. After a few days of troubleshooting, I feel like an idiot haha. But now everything works and I am up and printing again. I think I am going to make a blog about my printing endeavors, and hopefully it will give some people ideas and help people with their first printer.

Sounds cool galaxyman and grats on figuring out what was happening.

Thanks. Now I just need to figure out how to get the cardboard off the back of the parts. I think I might have to use some drain cleaner. Boiling it in lemon juice or vinegar doesn't work. I have seen videos on youtube of drain cleaner dissolving paper very quicky, so hopefully that will work. Either that or I try to run a lighter over it. I have a feeling that will distort the plastic though.

I am not so sure I would want to run a part through some caustic drain cleaner. Heck, the fumes alone makes the fumes from your printing Nylon pale in comparison to the damage you will be doing to yourself. I did damage to my lungs when I was younger by using Easyoff and Draino without adequate ventilation a few times (can we say I had to open all the windows in my house and I went coughing outside and hope my family's pets didn't die). Nasty stuff the both of them but I was young and invincible, lol.

edit: No, I didn't use them both at the same time as that might have resulted in an explosion.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2012 12:51AM by Dark Alchemist.

just soak the cardboard in warm water untill it is very soft. peel off what you can and scrub the rest off witha a sponge.