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Defense Distributed

Posted by obelisk79 
Defense Distributed
July 31, 2018 01:14PM
So, google has been feeding me tons of articles lately concerning 3d printed guns and defense distributed.

Here in the United States there has been a lot of media and political attention (fear mongering, in my opinion) regarding this issue lately. I'm sure this isn't the first time this kind of topic has come up for discussion here on RepRap. But I'd like to get some of your thoughts on the matter.

Personally, I think 3d printed guns are largely impractical, despite their potentially scary implications. I had an acquaintance on facebook argue with me that someone would invariably mass produce untraceable guns and we will now see an unusual spike in gun violence as a result. I tried offering statistics in counter argument along with attempting to explain the amount of time and motivation someone would need to have to make even one but you just can't reason with someone's emotions of fear I guess.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2018 01:15PM by obelisk79.
VDX
Re: Defense Distributed
July 31, 2018 02:15PM
... in terms of "manufacturing untraceable guns" -- any cheapish lathe is much more capable and will create much more rigid/trusty parts eye rolling smiley


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Re: Defense Distributed
July 31, 2018 03:39PM
Quote
VDX
... in terms of "manufacturing untraceable guns" -- any cheapish lathe is much more capable and will create much more rigid/trusty parts eye rolling smiley

The big fear selling point is the whole idea that you could walk through a medal detector with one etc... although I agree, for the same amount of money invested, it'd be more practical to fabricate your own gun with a cheap lathe and a drill press. But at least in the U.S. I don't think many people aware of the decades-old 80% receiver market that people use to make un-tracked weapons.
Re: Defense Distributed
July 31, 2018 07:22PM
I take my printer to the Milwaukee MakerFaire every year (at the end of September). This year I'm going to put a sign on the printer that will hopefully prevent the usual dozens of inquiries about 3D printed guns.





Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Defense Distributed
July 31, 2018 07:37PM
That is an excellent sign. Not sure about makerfaire, but I definitely need to get involved with my local maker space. Mind if I plagerize that sign?
Re: Defense Distributed
July 31, 2018 09:54PM
People you are missing important information about the Liberator it isn't any more a gun than any short piece of plastic pipe is a "gun".

When the Cartridge is fired the bullet starts it's travel down the plastic barrel. The bullet traveling down this plastic barrel risks the chance of
splitting the barrel, or the cartridge breaking through the back and into the shooters face. With all luck the bullet travels forward.
Now the compressed gasses forcing the bullet forward have the same ability too blow the barrel apart or cause the bullet to tumble ripping the barrel apart traveling out in a undetermined direction. Without a solid metal barrel the gasses leak from the loose weak plastic barrel causing the bullet to leave very slowly tumbling due the not having a solid barrel twist where the bullet will go almost anywhere and not very far at that. The Liberator's bullet will emerge going very slowly and wobbling or tumbling due to lack of spin. It might go almost anywhere, and is unlikely to do much damage to anything it manages to hit.

This 3D Printed thing does not even compare with a "Zip Gun"
Which by the way is legal in the USA

All news about the 3D Printed guns are highly exaggerated on both sides.


Electronics Technician / Computer Programmer
Re: Defense Distributed
July 31, 2018 10:00PM
Quote
obelisk79
That is an excellent sign. Not sure about makerfaire, but I definitely need to get involved with my local maker space. Mind if I plagerize that sign?

Feel free to plagiarize and improve upon it.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2018 10:01PM by the_digital_dentist.


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Defense Distributed
July 31, 2018 11:41PM
Yes the Media is probably colluding with the stupid law makers in a con to get these 3DPrinted Guns into the hands of as many idiots psycho's as possible, so that when they do fire it it goes horribly wrong on the user...

Meanwhile feel free to kill as many people as you wish with the real gun you just found under a bush or bought for less than the price of a 3D Printer, nobody will come after you they are too busy chasing down crims with plastic guns.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2018 11:45PM by MechaBits.
Re: Defense Distributed
August 01, 2018 03:42AM
Quote
MechaBits
Yes the Media is probably colluding with the stupid law makers in a con to get these 3DPrinted Guns into the hands of as many idiots psycho's as possible, so that when they do fire it it goes horribly wrong on the user...

Meanwhile feel free to kill as many people as you wish with the real gun you just found under a bush or bought for less than the price of a 3D Printer, nobody will come after you they are too busy chasing down crims with plastic guns.


I am personally in favor of this kind of natural selection but I think the media and politicians don't and really believe 3D printed guns are a reality and a real threat. Attention seekers and an obsession to control honest citizen.
The whole frenzy started with the "plastic" Glock supposed to be undetected by Xrays.

Real working guns have been 3D printed but the machines used are more expensive than a full set of regular machine tools. Not to mention the skills required.
I made my first pen gun, better than the OSS ones when I was 15 with just files, hacksaw, drill.

Except for the grips, not much you can make with a FDM printer.

I also made sound reducer baffles, OK for 22LR, not much more and MUST be contained in a metal housing.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2018 04:56AM by MKSA.


"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)
Re: Defense Distributed
August 01, 2018 07:04AM
THINGIVERSE should pull its finger out,,, there whole reporting system a sham. file been up for an hour so far, 130 downloads ( there be a knock on the door for those of us in the UK!!! dont be silly with D/loads their always watchin.eye popping smiley

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2018 04:09AM by jinx.
Re: Defense Distributed
August 01, 2018 08:05AM
Best part, it's completely legal in the united states to make your own guns in your house. I guess just not with a 3d printer.
Re: Defense Distributed
August 01, 2018 11:49AM
Some smart lawyer on TV saying it makes no sense to have these downloadable...yeah no sense to your side, manufacturers of guns, might hit them in the pocket...I think I could model the gun by eye no dl needed, over engineer and make a canon.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2018 11:53AM by MechaBits.
Re: Defense Distributed
August 01, 2018 12:39PM
This poorly designed junk of a gun has been removed from Thingiverse.
I just watched CNN. Looks like the idiots in the medias, lawyers ....needed to make some buzz to get people's attention.
Just to gain some market share or what ????


"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)
Re: Defense Distributed
August 01, 2018 01:54PM
to avoid talking about the real issues
Re: Defense Distributed
August 02, 2018 03:58AM
On the other hand, with a little more engineering, one may be able to print a serviceable gun. How effective would one need to be in a small aluminum tube at 40,000 feet?
Re: Defense Distributed
August 02, 2018 09:44AM
There is a repository on github with several designs some of which have been proven to produce effective firearms capable of multiple shots without failure. But, on that note, you own't catch me ever trying to fire one. I enjoy having fingers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2018 09:45AM by obelisk79.
Re: Defense Distributed
August 02, 2018 10:23AM
Why do all these articles seem to assume that the ammunition is undetectable too? Surely a few grams of lead and brass will show up nicely on an xray and metal detectors?
Re: Defense Distributed
August 02, 2018 10:36AM
Quote
obelisk79
There is a repository on github with several designs some of which have been proven to produce effective firearms capable of multiple shots without failure. But, on that note, you own't catch me ever trying to fire one. I enjoy having fingers.

These "plastic" ones use a steel barrel and bolt. I furthermore noticed that the guys are in fact lucky because the barrel tube is oversized thus leading to far less pressure than in a barrel of the right size (typical of smokeless powder). There is no way these key parts made out of "plastic" could withstand the punishment of serious pistol/revolver calibers (>2000bar) and rifle (>3000bar). What is OK for limited use are grip/receiver/frame in designs where they are not stressed. Glock and similar, AR16/M4 frame for ex.
"Plastic" used in real guns have not much in common with FDM plastics.
BTW: The 3D guns shown even made with the right process are just junks the worst mechanic of the 19 century wouldn't have dreamed of.

One key point though, in the US only the receiver has to be registered and you can legally buy all key components likes bolt, barrel, trigger mechanism ... This is not the case for other countries where retard politicians want that even springs be restricted.

There is NO 3D plastic gun problem. I suspect something "fishy" from the US "liberal" crowd for making AGAIN all this buzz ! Won't take long before their counterparts in the EU will start barking too.

How about making 3D printed knifes to reduce the risk.
3D plastic cars and trucks, ? They will make less damage when plowing in a crowd ?


"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)
Re: Defense Distributed
August 02, 2018 10:38AM
Quote
Zedsquared
Why do all these articles seem to assume that the ammunition is undetectable too? Surely a few grams of lead and brass will show up nicely on an xray and metal detectors?

You are trying to use LOGIC ! Big mistake, these people don't reason !


"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)
Re: Defense Distributed
August 02, 2018 01:19PM
Quote
MKSA
One key point though, in the US only the receiver has to be registered and you can legally buy all key components likes bolt, barrel, trigger mechanism ... This is not the case for other countries where retard politicians want that even springs be restricted.

I'd just like to clarify that a receiver does not actually have to be registered or serialized. There is a large market for 80% receivers that are unserialized which are legal to be sold. Furthermore it is legal to build a firearm in your own home for personal use without a license or registration; provided that firearm type is also legally purchaseable (ie AR-15) from a licensed dealer. After a firearm is made in your own home for personal use it is not required to be registered or serialized in any state with the exception of California.

United States gun laws aside, I agree the idea of a fully plastic 3d gun being considered a viable threat is currently ludicrous. Not to mention that they should be considered incredibly unsafe for the person attempting to operate one.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2018 01:59PM by obelisk79.
Re: Defense Distributed
August 02, 2018 06:07PM
DD is using the hype of the plastic gun as a method to increase traffic to
their site and sell their mini-mills. Along with the mills they sell lower receivers and other parts that would normally have serial numbers had they come through legal channels. They sell a cheap block of aluminum (at a considerable markup) and all you have to do is to put on finishing touches to make it usable. All of the other parts are considered to be accessories and are readily available online. I think that is more worrisome and should garner more attention than the STL's DD wanted to post. The "3D PRINTED GUN" is nothing more than a distraction to take peoples focus away from their other product offerings.
Attachments:
open | download - DD.JPG (72 KB)
Re: Defense Distributed
August 02, 2018 08:30PM
I think the hype is a distraction from the real concept. I'm guessing that the law isn't aimed at FDM-printed Liberators, but at preventing the dissemination of gun designs for CNC-machining or metal deposition 3D-printing?

Of course, this *is* good news for firearms companies; I can't buy a Binfords 2000 (or Baofeng or Wei Chan) CNC mill and set up shop to put Colt out of business. And it's good for the Police and government; less firearms on the street, and less untraceable firearms. But most importantly, it's good news for all the people who don't get shot.

OTOH, I hope that this isn't a precedent; I can see John Deere and Tesla and other manufacturers *loving* the idea of a ban on dissemination of designs for parts for their products. Ban the dissemination of 3D printer designs that could be used make guns?
Re: Defense Distributed
August 02, 2018 09:13PM
Quote
Shank man
Along with the mills they sell lower receivers and other parts that would normally have serial numbers had they come through legal channels.

Selling 80% receivers without serial numbers is legal. Unsavory perhaps, but legal. Making a firearm in your own home for personal use without background check, registration, serial number etc is also legal in the united states.

[www.atf.gov]
Re: Defense Distributed
August 03, 2018 01:19AM
If there were a real threat, would not the ownership of the 3D Printer be prohibited as a condition of parole/probation soon?
Hmmm.

Personally, I don't see the attraction, to each their own, I guess.
Re: Defense Distributed
August 03, 2018 09:24AM
Quote
Diggrr

Personally, I don't see the attraction, to each their own, I guess.

The attraction is, it is a guaranteed right under our constitution to be able to defend our self's against all who wish to deny us our right's foreign and domestic.
The men and women of the United States have died protecting the right of democracy for everyone, do you believe we would not defend our own democracy with our lives.

They only want our guns so they can dominant us, and are willing to destroy the our Constitutional rights in order to to get this dominants that they desire.
This will only serve to start the USA's 2nd Civil War where the whole world will suffer because the USA will be too busy defending itself to protect anyone else.
This is how WW III will start, some Country will think that because we are so wrapped up in our own fight, we will not notice them trying to conquer us and our allies.
But what they will not know, is almost as some as the USA's 2nd Civil War start both sides will have Nuclear Power of it's own.
This is where their mistake will come from as two separate thou still United States will have Nuclear Power for them to deal with.
Not having the resources to deal with yet another invasion and fearing defeat we will be forced to defend our territory an launch the arsenals at out disposal.

I know! All over our right to carry and bear arms against a tyrannous government, kind of like killing a man for sleeping with your wife this happens almost daily.

Now let's get back to 3D Printers!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2018 09:25AM by Roberts_Clif.


Electronics Technician / Computer Programmer
Re: Defense Distributed
August 03, 2018 11:34AM
Quote
frankvdh
1.."But most importantly, it's good news for all the people who don't get shot."

2 "OTOH, I hope that this isn't a precedent; I can see John Deere and Tesla and other manufacturers *loving* the idea of a ban on dissemination of designs for parts for their products. Ban the dissemination of 3D printer designs that could be used make guns?"

1 - See, exactly what I hinted. Despite there is NO evidence of misuse of "printed" guns, YOU fall in this typical socialist trap. They managed to convince you of their GOOD intend, protect you and thus YOU are OK and even ask for LESS freedom !
Consider how in the UK freedom went down the drain, a police state eager to control, spy on, punish the HONEST. All this to protect them but failing miserably, worse even ending up hiding organized crime and gang rape for the sake of PC. A new dictatorship indeed. See Eastern Europe reaction. Hey, they have been there before !

2 - Seriously ? Indeed there has been a lot of hype in the media about fixing all kind of stuff thanks to these 3D printers. Now, see the kind of "design" and parts that looks like spare "hinge", "bolts", "coat hanger" ... in Thingiverse, the overall level of technical knowledge, even here. A Tesla cup holder is beyond the capabilities of 99 %. The 1% who could will find it better to just buy it (not from Tesla smiling smiley .


"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)
Re: Defense Distributed
August 03, 2018 11:36AM
Quote
Roberts_Clif
.....
Now let's get back to 3D Printers!

Indeed, lets enjoy this freedom while we can smiling smiley


"A comical prototype doesn't mean a dumb idea is possible" (Thunderf00t)
Re: Defense Distributed
August 03, 2018 11:46PM
I did my 6 in the US Army...just to get that out of way.

We've elected far too many people of greed and wealth for them to work together long enough to take our freedoms.
Our government couldn't organize a fruit salad.

Paranoia is entertaining though, but not as much as 3D printing. winking smiley
Re: Defense Distributed
August 07, 2018 02:49PM
Quote
frankvdh
OTOH, I hope that this isn't a precedent; I can see John Deere and Tesla and other manufacturers *loving* the idea of a ban on dissemination of designs for parts for their products. Ban the dissemination of 3D printer designs that could be used make guns?

Considering that Tesla opened up all of their technology patents, I can't see them being too worried about it. John Deere might not like their latest greatest designs being ripped off, but they're really not in any danger from 3D printing.

Really this isn't the first onslaught against 3D printing. There was a lot of sound and fury about the possibilities of infringing IP when the technology was just hitting the consumer market. That was before people realized that FDM printing was no substitute for good injection molding, even with the same plastics.

So now the furor is over guns. Well, guns aren't exactly the most sophisticated technology in the world, and if I wanted to make my own gun, I could probably make one with some decent hardwood and woodworking tools faster and more reliably than I could 3D print one, but I don't see anyone making a move on drill presses or lathes.

Anyone see the 1993 Eastwood movie "In the Line of Fire"? An assassin makes a plastic gun for poorly thought-out reasons. This would have been more expensive in 1993 than a 3D printer is now, but the technology to do it existed then, and was something that a hobbyist could potentially do. Heck, I would put money on people making one just to figure out if it could really be done when the movie was in theatres.

I expect that the brewhaha will die out over time. It will flare up again when someone sneaks one onto a plane (Though modern backscatter X-Ray will find one pretty damned quick.) but just like people stopped worrying about patent infringement that legitimately is possible with 3D printing, I don't see this ever being that big a deal.
Re: Defense Distributed
August 08, 2018 02:38AM
I'm waiting for the first very public cases of people getting seriously injured or killed by trying to fire printed weapons. That should help cool things down.
When i heard of FDM 3D printed weapons first i had to lough. Here in germany you can find any number of CNC shops in your close vicinity, not counting private DIYers/makers. If people would want to create own weapons they could and much more relaible and useable ones than this Defense Distributed idiocy. It needs a special kind of lunacy to be enthusiastic about a new stupid way to maim yourself.


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