Any BotMill joy yet ...?

I post this as an open note to all of:

"Eric Hunting" , epatel, Adrian,
"Justin" , MrJohn aka GeoDroidJohn,
"Gil Mayron" , & support@botmill.com.

(I will also send an email to those of you for which
I have email addresses.)

I ask if any of you have found satisfaction yet from
BotMill over the less than plug-n-play nature or your
experiences with them.

I ask this because I myself have tried to contact them
with the intention of buying an assembled Glider 3.0 &,
while I have spent no money yet, I am wondering if I
should.

You will notice that I include Gil & the support staff
(presumably Fred Ottley) in this note in an effort to
keep them in the loop.

It seems that BotMill is earning a reputation for
promising much & delivering little.

Well, folks, How's it going?
Anybody received an out-of-the-box, plug-n-play, &
(above all) working machine yet?

I confess I am a bit more than just curious.

Yours,

Dan Zuras

Personally I think your a fool if you spend $1400 on a preassembled RepRap.

You can self source one for 1/3 the price, and get a really nice kit for 1/2 the price. Also if it's preasembled who is going to fix it WHEN, not if it breaks?

Souce and bulild it yourself dude, it's not hard, worth the experence, and saves you enough money that you could build 3 machines if you wanted to.

---

repraplogphase.blogspot.com

For it's worth, I now agree wholeheartedly with spacexula. You're going to eventually need the experience, so get it from the start. I don't know that you save money up front

With that said, I now considered myself satisfied with Botmill. I didn't get a preassembled kit, but I ordered a kit back before Halloween last year, and this month consider my relationship with them finally complete. In the end the quality of the parts are excellent, even tho the experience has been atrocious. I agree with the sentiment that they seemed to want to do the minimum necessary to not escalate the situation, as late as possible.

I gave up and bought a set of plastic from nophead, a set of ramps electronics, and a maker gear hot end and have learned more from this experience than I would from a preassembled kit. I am assembling the set they finally sent me and am almost done so I'll hopefully have two Mendels going by the end of the weekend. I have to admit the quality of the plastic compares to nophead's, but is off older plates, I prefer his changes.

If I were starting over I would go the self-source route.

> Subject: Re: Any Botmill joy yet...?
> To: "Dan Zuras 3D"
> From: "Gil Mayron"
> Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:25:21 +0000
>
> Dan,
>
> I hope all is well.
> I'm trying to understand:
> What is your question?
> Who is this directed towards?
> What is the purpose of the public posting?
>
> Kindly let us know what we can help with.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Gil

Gil,

Your questions deserve a well considered, if verbose, answer.

I am a retired mathematician/engineer/machinist who became
interested in Reprap about 2 years ago. After watching the
developments for some time I became convinced that the Mendel
was the first reprap machine that was both affordable enough
& capable enough to be of interest to me. I no longer had an
excuse not to have one.

Then last year this month I attended the Maker Faire in San
Mateo. In between flaming steam punk vehicles & dancing
R2D2s I was able to find time to visit with the reprap crowd
that was there. I met & befriended some nice people there
some of which I still correspond with to this day. One of
them sold me the plastic parts needed to make a Mendel &
also helped me greatly in the following months.

But plastic parts do not a reprap make. So began my months
of gathering stuff. So much stuff was delivered to my house
that my neighbor wondered what was going on. I ordered rods
& nuts & bolts & electronics & on & on & an extruder.
Especially an extruder. It is the part most often missing
from any allegedly complete list of parts.

The word "complete" & phrases like "completely assembled"
or "assembled & tested" are bandied about a great deal.
My electronics was far from assembled & therefore could not
have been tested. Cables needed assembly. Connectors were
missing. Things like that.

But, be that as it may, after the gathering parts phase came
the assembly phase. More months. More parts discovered to
be missing. More delays for delivery.

Then, just after the holidays, came the bring up phase in
which I applied power to the thing to see what happened.
You will not be surprised to find that, initially, nothing
happened. It was a simple matter of incorrect specifications
of what power is needed where but it was typical of my
experiences by this time. It was also easy to fix. Power
came on & things started to move. Not easily at first. The
Z-axis was particularly difficult to get right.

Then came the software problems. Wrong versions. Easy to
fix. Wrong defaults. Also easy. Things for which I had
no good explanation. The friends I made back at the Maker
Faire came in handy here. One in particular just knew the
answer when something came up. In my early days designing
computers we used to call this documentation by folklore.
I thought it had gone the way of all things but its amusing
if frustrating to find it still in vogue.

But I am tired of it all. When you get to my age the
constant frustration is no longer a learning experience &
becomes just a pain in the ass. It is embarrassing for an
old engineer to admit but at this point I rather throw money
at the problem than spend another summer not making things.

So, knowing that the Maker Faire was coming to my town once
again, I thought I'd go to it & just buy what I could off
the floor from someone who was there. So I looked around on
the web for what was out there in the way of, if you'll excuse
the expression "completely assembled & tested" reprap machines.

BotMill stood out right away.

A completely assembled & tested Glider 3.0 for $1395.

(You will recall that my first question to you was would you
be at the Faire. This was why.)

You claim, & I quote:

BotMill's fully assembled (not the first time I've
heard this but I am still willing to believe),
plug-and-print (a new phrase but it sounds like what
I want) Desktop 3D printer. Ready for 3D printing
(exactly what I want): Take out of the box, plug in
the power cord and USB (a good idea) and load a file
to print. Many free extras included. (lots of
plastic, heated bed...the list goes on)

(All parenthetical remarks but the last are mine.)
At less than $1400 (OK, more than $1500 after s&h+taxes) your
price is about what I've spent on my machine so far. It is
also substantially less than other "fully assembled & tested"
machines I have found so far. This no doubt accounts for
your many customers. And, since this is still substantially
more than your costs should be, you will be a very successful
manufacturer. If you can but deliver on your claims.

Your advantages go on...

Shipping is usually within 7-10 days.
No building required.
Easy to use software.

Again, from your overview:

BotMill's Plug-N-Print Desktop 3D printer. Ready for
3D printing: This machine comes ready and requires NO
building or calibration. Take out of the box, plug in
the power cord and USB and load a file to print. Many
free extras included.

I'm not sure about this claim:

All plastic pieces on this 3D printer was made by 3D
printers!

Your explanation for why some printers failed was a failure
of your suppliers to provide you with parts to spec. If these
parts are made on other reprap machines, I quite understand
the problem. But this situation suggested to me that you were
having your plastic parts fabricated by more conventional
plastic suppliers. I see I may have been mistaken. Still, I
thought this might be a good idea given the general state of
reliability of repraps for manufacture to date.

More from your website:

Software: Software comes with your printer settings
fully saved on a BotMill USB Keychain. No installation
necessary. Simply double click on our program and load
a file. We even include a couple sample print files for
your amusement.

A VERY good idea. If true. Alas, the experiences of others
suggest otherwise.

Technical Support: We strive to be the best in
technical support and communication. Our staff is
constantly growing and as a result we have extremely
fast support response times. Email technical support
at any time. We will make sure you understand your
printer, how it works and operates, and how to
maintain it.

You already know the difficulties I have had trying to get a
timely response from you or your "support staff".

Shipping: This top quality item is produced individually
for each incoming order. We do our best to minimize any
delay. Current waiting list for Gliders is 5-6 weeks.
You will receive status updates of your printers build
progress.

Again, there is testimony to the contrary.

So let me see if I have answered your questions as asked.

> I hope all is well.

I am as heathy as can be expected, thank you for asking.
I am at a loss as to where to spend my money on a reprap
machine but I will figure that out sooner or later.

> I'm trying to understand:

I too am trying to understand. While I don't conclude,
as others have done, that you are trying to scam your
customers, I do wonder if you have gotten in over your
head. If you really believe in what you are doing it
may be that that belief has blinded you to some very real
problems in the product (or service, really) that you are
offering. Perhaps it is time to stand back & take an
honest look at things to get a better picture of what is
happening to your business. If you find you cannot do
that, let me suggest you find a trusted friend who is
willing to tell you a hard truth.

> What is your question?

I still seek to possess a working reprap machine. I was
hoping you were able to provide me with one. I have my
doubts now. Don't you?

> Who is this directed towards?

Initially, I was hoping that the promises you made to the
various people who have posted here were kept. I was
hoping they would all say it was a misunderstanding or a
glitch or something & that all is well. I was hoping that
they were all now happy with their Gliders. I was hoping
to find that joy myself.

> What is the purpose of the public posting?

Your question suggests that my motive was to embarrass you.
Frankly, that ship has sailed. But that embarrassment was
based on the statements of just a few. It was possible
that they were the exception. A public posting gave others
the opportunity to come forth & tell their tales of wonderful
experiences in dealing with BotMill. I was hoping that might
happen. It might still happen. But I don't think I will be
doing business with your company until it does.

>
> Kindly let us know what we can help with.

To do all that you claim would be more than enough.
To do MOST of what you claim would make a business.
What you claim to offer is enough for you to do a great
& highly profitable business in this market.
But to make great claims & not back them up is bad.
Aphorisms about "things that sound too good to be true"
come to mind.

I hope you can fix your current problems.
I really do.
But in the meantime I will go to the Maker Faire & see
what I can get there.

I'm sorry.
For all of us.

Yours,

Dan Zuras

From my expierence alone I wholeheartedly can not recomend them. In retrospect I whish I had gone with Cdnreprap or maker gear. Also consider going with a prusa if you are feeling intimidated by the build. There is now an amazing guide for building it and I promise it will be worth it, (ill add a link later) I went for a built Mendel because I needed it for my product design thesis to prototype parts, I didn't have the time to build one (which I really wanted to do) and ironically after a month of waiting i had to completly rebuild it which took 4+ solid days of work (BM did refund me the difference between the glider and axis kits which I appreciated).

And no I'm not a fool for wanting a pre built Mendel but I did feel like a fool after doing some research on bm dater giving them my money...


PS BM, please don't email me again about my postings about my experience with you guys, it's my moral obligation to make sure those interested understand what they may be dealing with and I am being factual and objective.

I also bought a partially assembled Botmill (before Glider) in order to save time and I was greatly disappointed. The frame was so poorly assembled that I ended up spending just as much time on it as I would have if I bought the unassembled parts separately. I was not expecting a plug-and-play. But I expected what was claimed in their web site: an assembled frame that I can mount the electronics and belts to.

Anyone who thinks they can buy a plug-and-play Mendel from Botmill or elsewhere would be disappointed. Look at the design carefully and do your research. It's designed to be fiddled with and you will eventually have to. If you want a plug-and-play printer, look at other options.

We have been shipping many orders this year to many satisfied customers. We have had some supplier problems months ago and fixed production glitches months ago. We always give personal attention to every single customer that buys from us. Anyone knows that we answer all inquiries with a personal dialogue and take care of our customers. Anyone that has any issue whatsoever can always reach us and all here will make sure all issues are resolved to full satisfaction.

Best Regards,

BotMill Team
support@botmill.com
www.BotMill.com

---

----------------------------------------
www.BotMill.com
Follow us on twitter @BotMill

Hello everyone,

I would like to describe my poroblems with Botmill. I ordered a Glider and 5LBS PLA, and the order was placed on May 30th.
Today, there is neither Glider nor cash. They have informed me a month ago about sending a kind of check with cash return, but until today i haven't received my money back.

We have sent more than 30 e-mails regarding this case. I also informed appropriate authorities about this particuar situation. What do you think ? Will I get my money back from them ?

It is also amaizing thet BotMill is still on the main page of reprap.org, and they are still selling something that is only an imagination ...

Regards
Arek

I've had a similar experience - after building a cupcake and a thingomatic for educational use, I thought I could save some time buying the glider preassembled (and with a larger build area). Botmill immediately accepted the charge from my grant in June. Here in October after numerous emails with Gil Mayron, I have no printer, no offer to return payment and it is too late to contest the charge. So my small grant budget for 3d printing outreach is decremented and I have nothing to show for it. Luckily my Makerbot printers are still holding up.

Botmill is a scam - avoid them at all costs.

I hate to see people taken in by these fly by night 3D printer companies. Shoot me an e-mail and what you have left for a budget and lets see if I can get you a printer...

Jeff Christiana

support@thefutureis3d.com

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2011 11:32PM by Adventure.

Hi I am Barry;

Thought I would put a little of my story in this collection. (I could fill a book) I do have a (Botmill Axis 2) RepRap kit that I have gotten together. I started putting my machine together back around May 5 th 2011 but I am still having some problems getting it to move right and reacting to the end stops. Botmill has pretty well written me off as I have them. They have long since stopped responding to my daily emails and never found the time to send the stuff they said they would to get this machine working. Maybe I said something unkind. The last couple emails I've gotten from Gil (the CEO I guess) have had all these Legal Notices attached to them. These guys will tell you anything and to call them lairs would unfair to all the real Lairs out there. These are Con Men. DON'T BUY ANYTHING FROM BOTMILL !!!! Their support people are stupid bunch of kiss asses. You'll be lucky to get anything from them let alone what you need. These are almost the worst people in the market. I wish I had checked them out before I sent them any money. Even with Paypal they keep dragging it out until you are way past their time limits. The description of their product is almost completely wrong. It doesn't come with a heated bed and they will not change the description even after I've pointed it out to them over and over. The software is really out dated and there isn't much there. Shipping should be given in months but they will tell you days. The only good thing that I could possibly think to say about them is that the plastic parts I got looked pretty good. That it. I saw some stuff on You Tube that some kid got from them and was trying to use that were complete crap. I think they might be past that now. He was stuck in that they are going to send me some replacements soon zone. This was stuff that should have been thrown in the trash when it came off the printer. It had big holes in it. Later he had to buy his stuff somewhere else to keep his project going. Boy do I know that feeling. Be warned, when they start telling you how sorry they are and that they are going to fix everything right now don't believe it. They must say that a hundred times a day. Just get your money back and run while you can. Like some of the guys were saying here you can put one together pretty cheap now. Check ebay and read the blogs. There are apparently some people at Botmill that are pretty good with RepRap but they must have them chained to a table or something. I never heard from them. I actually feel sorry for them. As far as them having all these satisfied customers. Sounds like someone needs a drug test. Botmill should be a word you lookup and find the correct spelling is BotScam. The day they go out of business will be a relief to the whole industry and me.

After reading all these bad reports I thought I would surprise you with a basically good one.

My students and I recently ordered (september) a Botmill-glider.
We received it about six weeks later. Which is a long time. There was a moment we also thought we're going to be duped. Especially after reading all these bad reviews on this forum.
But Gil from Botmill kept me informed about the progress the whole time. Even in the weekends.

Even though there are a few things they got wrong like color and some missing screws ,the printer itself was excellent !
It took us only a few hours to assemble it and then another day to fine tune it.
But after that it was running like clockwork.
And the same could not be said for example about our rival-school who where using the Ultimaker. It took them a whole week of tinkering
before they got the same quality prints we did. So we were extremely satisfied.

So I think that Botmill is perhaps a little undermanned and try to do more than they can handle but I dont believe they are a scam.
However I do agree they should not advertise with such unrealistic expectations if they cannot deliver.
Just say it will take about six-weeks or more and not two weeks.
People will then know what they can expect.
And if it's worth the wait people dont mind waiting.

Boy, rayn_Prof you must win the Lotto too. I wouldn't read to much into your experience. I am sure they have an accident once in a while and actually send out a complete kit. It took me months to get it and months to get the missing parts. I really like the part were Gil promises you that he is going to go down right now and get that out today. 2 months later not a word. No response to any emails. Now I find out that one of my problems is that the base plate is bent. No wonder I can't adjust it. After going around and around with them about not getting the heated bed in the description they sent me one. I checked them both and they are both bent. Maybe it the way the clamp them when they water cut them. What ever. I am glade it worked out for you and your students. Like I said you hit the Lotto...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2011 06:46AM by Barry Law.

Well I must admit if I were asked if I would do business with them again ?? I would have to say no !
In my opinion they're not (yet) "professional" enough.
And that is something that is very important for me.

BotMill products are a total SCAM! We received our pre-assembled printer and after almost 2 weeks of one of our electrical engineers working on it, he only managed to get the heater working. Total rip-off. There is no documentation, their technical support will only tell you to search forums to find your fix. BUYER BEWARE!!!!!!!!