Why are filament spools so expensive compared to pellets?
Posted by ElectricMucus
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Re: Why are filament spools so expensive compared to pellets? July 02, 2011 01:16PM |
"Niche Market" just means that there is less volume and thus a tremendous markup somewhere in the supply chain.
But except for merchants most of those companies who sell filaments also produce the plastic itself. At least they sell the pellets too.
What bugs me is as said before that the process isn't that different, both come from cylindrical extrusion.
How I understand it a machine used to make pellets could also make filament (heck it even does, you just have to roll it up).
The cooling process could be a little different or will likely to be more complicated but I don't see how that would affect prices to that extent.
The power needed to make pellets or filaments is likely to be exactly the same.
I can come up with alot more different reason why current filament prices are simply usury.
As it is now the filament is just a product not a resource. Not that this surprises me much...
But: Right now every single online shop selling filament seems to get it from the same or a few sources. Everywhere you see the same damn black spool and the knowledge of where the factory is it is guarded like life depends on it.
Several "manufacturers" just seem to be opportunistic third party resellers!
Alone the fact that the mendel-parts guys can offer 1.75mm pla in tiny package sizes at half the cost/weight of the big spool, 3mm prices elsewhere using a university partnership at a puny volume lets me rage.
I feel exploited!
Lets hope this will change in the future... hopefully some day the volume will be high enough that the factories jump in... Imho it would be already that way if people wouldn't be so damn greedy. (or stupid)
The only reason of why the filaments are so expensive I can come up with is if the filament is only extruded one piece per die and not several per die like on the pellets. But I can come up with no sane reason why any factory would do that.
This is also the main reason I think the 1.75 mm filament shouldn't be more expensive. A single die can have one amount of 3mm holes or a larger amount of 1.75mm holes. There would be more spools needed but how I understand it the limiting factor is the pressure in the barrel anyway!
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2011 01:57PM by ElectricMucus.
But except for merchants most of those companies who sell filaments also produce the plastic itself. At least they sell the pellets too.
What bugs me is as said before that the process isn't that different, both come from cylindrical extrusion.
How I understand it a machine used to make pellets could also make filament (heck it even does, you just have to roll it up).
The cooling process could be a little different or will likely to be more complicated but I don't see how that would affect prices to that extent.
The power needed to make pellets or filaments is likely to be exactly the same.
I can come up with alot more different reason why current filament prices are simply usury.
As it is now the filament is just a product not a resource. Not that this surprises me much...
But: Right now every single online shop selling filament seems to get it from the same or a few sources. Everywhere you see the same damn black spool and the knowledge of where the factory is it is guarded like life depends on it.
Several "manufacturers" just seem to be opportunistic third party resellers!
Alone the fact that the mendel-parts guys can offer 1.75mm pla in tiny package sizes at half the cost/weight of the big spool, 3mm prices elsewhere using a university partnership at a puny volume lets me rage.
I feel exploited!
Lets hope this will change in the future... hopefully some day the volume will be high enough that the factories jump in... Imho it would be already that way if people wouldn't be so damn greedy. (or stupid)
The only reason of why the filaments are so expensive I can come up with is if the filament is only extruded one piece per die and not several per die like on the pellets. But I can come up with no sane reason why any factory would do that.
This is also the main reason I think the 1.75 mm filament shouldn't be more expensive. A single die can have one amount of 3mm holes or a larger amount of 1.75mm holes. There would be more spools needed but how I understand it the limiting factor is the pressure in the barrel anyway!
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2011 01:57PM by ElectricMucus.
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Re: Why are filament spools so expensive compared to pellets? July 02, 2011 02:04PM |
ElectricMucus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Niche Market" just means that there is less
> volume and thus a tremendous markup somewhere in
> the supply chain.
Yes.
> But except for merchants most of those companies
> who sell filaments also produce the plastic
> itself. At least they sell the pellets too.
I don't think so. The pellets come from big chemical companies. The filament comes from smaller companies who buy pellets and extrude them.
>
> What bugs me is as said before that the process
> isn't that different, both come from cylindrical
> extrusion.
> How I understand it a machine used to make pellets
> could also make filament (heck it even does, you
> just have to roll it up).
> The cooling process could be a little different or
> will likely to be more complicated but I don't see
> how that would affect prices to that extent.
> The power needed to make pellets or filaments is
> likely to be exactly the same.
I doubt pellets are made to anything like the same accuracy. Making accurate filament is more complicated and is done on a much smaller scale.
>
> I can come up with alot more different reason why
> current filament prices are simply usury.
> As it is now the filament is just a product not a
> resource. Not that this surprises me much...
>
> But: Right now every single online shop selling
> filament seems to get it from the same or a few
> sources. Everywhere you see the same damn black
> spool and the knowledge of where the factory is it
> is guarded like life depends on it.
If you buy it straight from the factory you need to buy 100's of kg at a time and presumably you get at the wholesale price. That is still far more than the cost of the pellets because you have to pay for the factory and they need to make a profit on the capital they put into buying the plant and the wages they pay.
>
> Several "manufacturers" just seem to be
> opportunistic third party resellers!
Well they are retailers, so they buy at wholesale price and mark it up to make a profit just like anything else. They are sinking capital into buying large lots and storing it for you. It is the same as any other retail product. Money is made all the way up the supply chain and the product is way more expensive than the raw materials.
>
> Alone the fact that the mendel-parts guys can
> offer 1.75mm pla in tiny package sizes at half the
> cost/weight of the big spool, 3mm prices elsewhere
> using a university partnership at a puny volume
> lets me rage.
> I feel exploited!
Well its is a small new niche market so there is not enough competition to drive prices down yet. Companies that own extruders are never going to run them for peanuts though, they will use them to make something else like window frame extrusions, which must also have a massive markup on the raw plastic.
>
> Lets hope this will change in the future...
> hopefully some day the volume will be high enough
> that the factories jump in... Imho it would be
> already that way if people wouldn't be so damn
> greedy. (or stupid)
Think of any plastic product. It always cost far more than the raw plastic. The reason is people build factories to make products and they want a return on their investment. Why would they do it at cost?
The only way it will be dirt cheap is if you buy large quantities of granules and extrude them yourself.
Even paying the high prices for plastic that we do, the objects we make are still cheaper than you can buy in the shops.
[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Niche Market" just means that there is less
> volume and thus a tremendous markup somewhere in
> the supply chain.
Yes.
> But except for merchants most of those companies
> who sell filaments also produce the plastic
> itself. At least they sell the pellets too.
I don't think so. The pellets come from big chemical companies. The filament comes from smaller companies who buy pellets and extrude them.
>
> What bugs me is as said before that the process
> isn't that different, both come from cylindrical
> extrusion.
> How I understand it a machine used to make pellets
> could also make filament (heck it even does, you
> just have to roll it up).
> The cooling process could be a little different or
> will likely to be more complicated but I don't see
> how that would affect prices to that extent.
> The power needed to make pellets or filaments is
> likely to be exactly the same.
I doubt pellets are made to anything like the same accuracy. Making accurate filament is more complicated and is done on a much smaller scale.
>
> I can come up with alot more different reason why
> current filament prices are simply usury.
> As it is now the filament is just a product not a
> resource. Not that this surprises me much...
>
> But: Right now every single online shop selling
> filament seems to get it from the same or a few
> sources. Everywhere you see the same damn black
> spool and the knowledge of where the factory is it
> is guarded like life depends on it.
If you buy it straight from the factory you need to buy 100's of kg at a time and presumably you get at the wholesale price. That is still far more than the cost of the pellets because you have to pay for the factory and they need to make a profit on the capital they put into buying the plant and the wages they pay.
>
> Several "manufacturers" just seem to be
> opportunistic third party resellers!
Well they are retailers, so they buy at wholesale price and mark it up to make a profit just like anything else. They are sinking capital into buying large lots and storing it for you. It is the same as any other retail product. Money is made all the way up the supply chain and the product is way more expensive than the raw materials.
>
> Alone the fact that the mendel-parts guys can
> offer 1.75mm pla in tiny package sizes at half the
> cost/weight of the big spool, 3mm prices elsewhere
> using a university partnership at a puny volume
> lets me rage.
> I feel exploited!
Well its is a small new niche market so there is not enough competition to drive prices down yet. Companies that own extruders are never going to run them for peanuts though, they will use them to make something else like window frame extrusions, which must also have a massive markup on the raw plastic.
>
> Lets hope this will change in the future...
> hopefully some day the volume will be high enough
> that the factories jump in... Imho it would be
> already that way if people wouldn't be so damn
> greedy. (or stupid)
Think of any plastic product. It always cost far more than the raw plastic. The reason is people build factories to make products and they want a return on their investment. Why would they do it at cost?
The only way it will be dirt cheap is if you buy large quantities of granules and extrude them yourself.
Even paying the high prices for plastic that we do, the objects we make are still cheaper than you can buy in the shops.
[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]
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Re: Why are filament spools so expensive compared to pellets? July 02, 2011 03:29PM |
Quote
How about a good old clock gauge measuring the filament as it goes in. I am sure i have seen digital gauges with RS232 out.
We could adjust feedrate based on measuring the pressure of the melt
I think if we ever could get filaments who were made directly at the plastic plant we could certainly come up with something.
You are right. The only thing we would need to do is measure the pressure inside the extruder. This way the flow-rate would be independent of the filament. The extruder firmware wouldn't be as straight forward but I am certain that with the right code we could keep the pressure on whatever level we need. I think such a system would be even better than what we have now because even with our current filament we have tolerances which are uncompensated right now.
BTW:
Pellets are a major environmental hazard just google "nurdle" and be surprised.
and the current prices are in the range of fimo
I think the main reason why to make pellets at all is that they can be conveyed using pressurized air inside the plant. But I suspect that conveying filament using pulleys has its advantages also. The only problem I see is storage & shipping space...
This has to do with the whole large scale globalist economy anyway. If you don't need to transport over large distances you don't have this issue.
Maybe we could organize something using user groups and hackerspaces to bunle our buying power, or even a online presence for this purpose.
The thought is to have a project to organize storage spaces, transportation and acquisition in a decentralized manner in such a way that we could get the volume to buy resources directly from the source. We do not have to restrict it to plastic, this could be done with any need.
If we have a number of people on one region who want something it could be sufficient. Individuals and Companies could join providing some service, transport, resources, products and so on. I have though alot of this for some time and the thought always leads to "we need something like this..."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2011 03:38PM by ElectricMucus.
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Re: Why are filament spools so expensive compared to pellets? July 04, 2011 12:37AM |
ElectricMucus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What bugs me is as said before that the process
> isn't that different, both come from cylindrical
> extrusion.
> How I understand it a machine used to make pellets
> could also make filament (heck it even does, you
> just have to roll it up).
> The cooling process could be a little different or
> will likely to be more complicated but I don't see
> how that would affect prices to that extent.
> The power needed to make pellets or filaments is
> likely to be exactly the same.
Since you seem to be completely unaware, most of the cost in extruding filament comes from the labor in spooling the filament and watching over the machine. Large spools are quite a bit cheaper than small spools since they don't need to be changed nearly as often. The diameter is also controlled by cool (and expensive) things like lasers, which are unnecessary when extruding pellets.
> I can come up with alot more different reason why
> current filament prices are simply usury.
> As it is now the filament is just a product not a
> resource. Not that this surprises me much...
> Alone the fact that the mendel-parts guys can
> offer 1.75mm pla in tiny package sizes at half the
> cost/weight of the big spool, 3mm prices elsewhere
> using a university partnership at a puny volume
> lets me rage.
> I feel exploited!
Maybe you aren't looking at enough total volume? I'm sure Mendel parts buys a LOT more PLA than you wanted to...
>
> Lets hope this will change in the future...
> hopefully some day the volume will be high enough
> that the factories jump in... Imho it would be
> already that way if people wouldn't be so damn
> greedy. (or stupid)
Unless you are willing to step up (at great personal financial risk) and buy an extrusion line to pump out vast quantities of quality filament, it is in your best interests to keep a little humility.
> The only reason of why the filaments are so
> expensive I can come up with is if the filament is
> only extruded one piece per die and not several
> per die like on the pellets. But I can come up
> with no sane reason why any factory would do
> that.
> This is also the main reason I think the 1.75 mm
> filament shouldn't be more expensive. A single die
> can have one amount of 3mm holes or a larger
> amount of 1.75mm holes. There would be more spools
> needed but how I understand it the limiting factor
> is the pressure in the barrel anyway!
Pressure along the extrusion head is not strictly uniform when dealing with something as viscous as ABS/PLA. Adjusting the pressure so one of the extrusion holes works perfectly may not necessarily make another one do so, especially considering the tolerances necessary for good filament.
In fairness, I am not intimately involved with the filament manufacturing process. However, I have spent a great amount of time researching how the filament is made, and talked with a few manufacturers about what influences their prices the most.
-------------------------------------------------------
> What bugs me is as said before that the process
> isn't that different, both come from cylindrical
> extrusion.
> How I understand it a machine used to make pellets
> could also make filament (heck it even does, you
> just have to roll it up).
> The cooling process could be a little different or
> will likely to be more complicated but I don't see
> how that would affect prices to that extent.
> The power needed to make pellets or filaments is
> likely to be exactly the same.
Since you seem to be completely unaware, most of the cost in extruding filament comes from the labor in spooling the filament and watching over the machine. Large spools are quite a bit cheaper than small spools since they don't need to be changed nearly as often. The diameter is also controlled by cool (and expensive) things like lasers, which are unnecessary when extruding pellets.
> I can come up with alot more different reason why
> current filament prices are simply usury.
> As it is now the filament is just a product not a
> resource. Not that this surprises me much...
> Alone the fact that the mendel-parts guys can
> offer 1.75mm pla in tiny package sizes at half the
> cost/weight of the big spool, 3mm prices elsewhere
> using a university partnership at a puny volume
> lets me rage.
> I feel exploited!
Maybe you aren't looking at enough total volume? I'm sure Mendel parts buys a LOT more PLA than you wanted to...
>
> Lets hope this will change in the future...
> hopefully some day the volume will be high enough
> that the factories jump in... Imho it would be
> already that way if people wouldn't be so damn
> greedy. (or stupid)
Unless you are willing to step up (at great personal financial risk) and buy an extrusion line to pump out vast quantities of quality filament, it is in your best interests to keep a little humility.
> The only reason of why the filaments are so
> expensive I can come up with is if the filament is
> only extruded one piece per die and not several
> per die like on the pellets. But I can come up
> with no sane reason why any factory would do
> that.
> This is also the main reason I think the 1.75 mm
> filament shouldn't be more expensive. A single die
> can have one amount of 3mm holes or a larger
> amount of 1.75mm holes. There would be more spools
> needed but how I understand it the limiting factor
> is the pressure in the barrel anyway!
Pressure along the extrusion head is not strictly uniform when dealing with something as viscous as ABS/PLA. Adjusting the pressure so one of the extrusion holes works perfectly may not necessarily make another one do so, especially considering the tolerances necessary for good filament.
In fairness, I am not intimately involved with the filament manufacturing process. However, I have spent a great amount of time researching how the filament is made, and talked with a few manufacturers about what influences their prices the most.
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Re: Why are filament spools so expensive compared to pellets? July 04, 2011 08:38AM |
You guys seem overly defensive on the plastic producers / suppliers...
I certainly realize that there are good reasons why we pay more for our filaments, than lets say some company making injection molded parts.
What concerns me is just the order of magnitude of how much more expensive it really is.
Andrew Diehl Wrote:
> > Alone the fact that the mendel-parts guys can
> > offer 1.75mm pla in tiny package sizes at half
> the
> > cost/weight of the big spool, 3mm prices
> elsewhere
> > using a university partnership at a puny volume
> > lets me rage.
> > I feel exploited!
>
> Maybe you aren't looking at enough total volume?
> I'm sure Mendel parts buys a LOT more PLA than you
> wanted to...
I'm sure mendel parts doesn't sell their pla at cost either. I'll bet they are still making a fair amount of cash.
For the sake of argument lets compare our filament to a similar product sold as a resource for hobbyist purposes...
Fimo modeling mass costs 1.75€ per 56 gram package at single quantiles on ebay. This is the 31.25€ per kg.
A larger package with 350g costs 10.25€. This would be 29.28€ per kg
A set of 240 packages of fimo costs 329.82€ this is the equivalent of 24.47€ per kg.
Yet a "no name" modeling mass in a set of 10 a 62g costs 25.79€ per kg.
Furthermore I'm fairly certain Fimo has almost none industrial uses. Mind you this are all consumer prices.
Almost any Hobby material is cheaper than our filament, and does not even have the benefit of being derived directly from an industrial material using just one production process.
There are perfectly good reasons for the current filament prices, but it has just to do with the huge markups of the shops / wholesalers.
I have read somewhere on the board of something like 2€ per kg for a bag of 100kg abs...
If we compare that to the filament lets take 40€ per kg for our filament we arrive at a factor of 20.
If we consider 2 intermediate merchants / suppliers we have a factor of 4.4
with 3 a factor of 2.7
with 4 a factor of 2.1
with 5 a a markup of 82%
and with 6 a markup of 64% which is something you would consider sane, but not cheap.
I highly doubt there are that many steps involved till we get to our spools in the shops which only leaves triple digit markup values.
PS: There are cheaper suppliers for the filament but I'll bet there are cheaper suppliers for the pellets too
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2011 08:52AM by ElectricMucus.
I certainly realize that there are good reasons why we pay more for our filaments, than lets say some company making injection molded parts.
What concerns me is just the order of magnitude of how much more expensive it really is.
Andrew Diehl Wrote:
> > Alone the fact that the mendel-parts guys can
> > offer 1.75mm pla in tiny package sizes at half
> the
> > cost/weight of the big spool, 3mm prices
> elsewhere
> > using a university partnership at a puny volume
> > lets me rage.
> > I feel exploited!
>
> Maybe you aren't looking at enough total volume?
> I'm sure Mendel parts buys a LOT more PLA than you
> wanted to...
I'm sure mendel parts doesn't sell their pla at cost either. I'll bet they are still making a fair amount of cash.
For the sake of argument lets compare our filament to a similar product sold as a resource for hobbyist purposes...
Fimo modeling mass costs 1.75€ per 56 gram package at single quantiles on ebay. This is the 31.25€ per kg.
A larger package with 350g costs 10.25€. This would be 29.28€ per kg
A set of 240 packages of fimo costs 329.82€ this is the equivalent of 24.47€ per kg.
Yet a "no name" modeling mass in a set of 10 a 62g costs 25.79€ per kg.
Furthermore I'm fairly certain Fimo has almost none industrial uses. Mind you this are all consumer prices.
Almost any Hobby material is cheaper than our filament, and does not even have the benefit of being derived directly from an industrial material using just one production process.
There are perfectly good reasons for the current filament prices, but it has just to do with the huge markups of the shops / wholesalers.
I have read somewhere on the board of something like 2€ per kg for a bag of 100kg abs...
If we compare that to the filament lets take 40€ per kg for our filament we arrive at a factor of 20.
If we consider 2 intermediate merchants / suppliers we have a factor of 4.4
with 3 a factor of 2.7
with 4 a factor of 2.1
with 5 a a markup of 82%
and with 6 a markup of 64% which is something you would consider sane, but not cheap.
I highly doubt there are that many steps involved till we get to our spools in the shops which only leaves triple digit markup values.
PS: There are cheaper suppliers for the filament but I'll bet there are cheaper suppliers for the pellets too
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2011 08:52AM by ElectricMucus.
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Re: Why are filament spools so expensive compared to pellets? July 04, 2011 08:45AM |
... some people tried much cheaper sources (mostly from china), but the quality of the filament wasn't usefull, as the diameter was +/- 0.3 to 0.5mm off.
So the higher price is mostly caused by the expensive machines used for making 'good' filament
Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
So the higher price is mostly caused by the expensive machines used for making 'good' filament
Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]
Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
|
Re: Why are filament spools so expensive compared to pellets? July 04, 2011 09:18AM |
VDX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... some people tried much cheaper sources (mostly
> from china), but the quality of the filament
> wasn't usefull, as the diameter was +/- 0.3 to
> 0.5mm off.
>
> So the higher price is mostly caused by the
> expensive machines used for making 'good' filament
>
So lets consider this: The company who makes filament buys said bags of 100kg for 2€/kg.
lets say they make a 64% markup like everyone else (which is quite ridiculous for any other product btw but lets just for the sake of argument)
This company sells the spools to a wholesaler who buys them and sells them to our shops. Lets say they both make 64% markup.
(mind you this is just for storage, and labor)
This would bring us to 8.6€ / kg for the consumer product. So you are telling me the machine that makes filament does cost 31.39€ / per kg to run & maintain? (mind you taxes only have to be paid once! so we could only shave a few % of that number)
No way..
In fairness This is not quite correct though since the wholesaler & the shop would add their markup after the cost of the machine have been factored in.
so lets factor the markup out 3 times which gives us 7.12€ / kg for a 2kg material. This would be the cost the producer has to pay to run the machine alone since costs for labor, storage and his profit would already be included in the markup.
This still seems quite excessive.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2011 09:38AM by ElectricMucus.
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... some people tried much cheaper sources (mostly
> from china), but the quality of the filament
> wasn't usefull, as the diameter was +/- 0.3 to
> 0.5mm off.
>
> So the higher price is mostly caused by the
> expensive machines used for making 'good' filament
>
So lets consider this: The company who makes filament buys said bags of 100kg for 2€/kg.
lets say they make a 64% markup like everyone else (which is quite ridiculous for any other product btw but lets just for the sake of argument)
This company sells the spools to a wholesaler who buys them and sells them to our shops. Lets say they both make 64% markup.
(mind you this is just for storage, and labor)
This would bring us to 8.6€ / kg for the consumer product. So you are telling me the machine that makes filament does cost 31.39€ / per kg to run & maintain? (mind you taxes only have to be paid once! so we could only shave a few % of that number)
No way..
In fairness This is not quite correct though since the wholesaler & the shop would add their markup after the cost of the machine have been factored in.
so lets factor the markup out 3 times which gives us 7.12€ / kg for a 2kg material. This would be the cost the producer has to pay to run the machine alone since costs for labor, storage and his profit would already be included in the markup.
This still seems quite excessive.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2011 09:38AM by ElectricMucus.
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Re: Why are filament spools so expensive compared to pellets? July 04, 2011 12:40PM |
Why is popcorn so much more expensive than raw corn by the ton?
Why is peanut butter so much more expensive than raw peanuts?
etc etc etc
In the end plastic is a waste byproduct of the oil we use for fuel, until the 50s we where throwing the stuff out. It's cheap because it's manufacture is subsidized by the fuel in your favorite mode of transport. The Pellets are common to injection molding & extrusion, your getting the economies of scale from every injection molded item in the world on those pellets.
As far as plastic extrusion companies, there just are not that many in the world, because the demand is VERY low for
the plastics industry.
We are very picky on the formulation, we are very picky on the consistency of the plastic and, the the diameter of the plastic, etc etc.
You think they are scaming you go buy a 120k machine to extrude plastic, then hire 2 guys who make $20+ an hour to run it, and the other 3 people it will take at minim to keep them going. Then Buy plastic by the ton, pay the huge power bills, and see if your willing to buy bulk plastic for $3 a lb and sell it for $4 an lb to customers that use at most 5lb a month.
I will be your biggest customer till you get sane or run yourself out of bushiness-9*
repraplogphase.blogspot.com
Why is peanut butter so much more expensive than raw peanuts?
etc etc etc
In the end plastic is a waste byproduct of the oil we use for fuel, until the 50s we where throwing the stuff out. It's cheap because it's manufacture is subsidized by the fuel in your favorite mode of transport. The Pellets are common to injection molding & extrusion, your getting the economies of scale from every injection molded item in the world on those pellets.
As far as plastic extrusion companies, there just are not that many in the world, because the demand is VERY low for
the plastics industry.
We are very picky on the formulation, we are very picky on the consistency of the plastic and, the the diameter of the plastic, etc etc.
You think they are scaming you go buy a 120k machine to extrude plastic, then hire 2 guys who make $20+ an hour to run it, and the other 3 people it will take at minim to keep them going. Then Buy plastic by the ton, pay the huge power bills, and see if your willing to buy bulk plastic for $3 a lb and sell it for $4 an lb to customers that use at most 5lb a month.
I will be your biggest customer till you get sane or run yourself out of bushiness-9*
repraplogphase.blogspot.com
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Re: Why are filament spools so expensive compared to pellets? July 04, 2011 02:12PM |
spacexula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why is popcorn so much more expensive than raw
> corn by the ton?
>
> Why is peanut butter so much more expensive than
> raw peanuts?
>
> etc etc etc
That is a very good point.
So do peanut butter & popcorn cost 20-figure the amount of their respective raw materials?
I think you all now the answer to that question... And peanut butter can be made with a decent grinder an popcorn machines cost about the same.
But that's not that big a problem, I think I've found a reasonable easy way to make a filament extrusion machine for home use.
I don't really believe statements that you'd have to measure the filament with lasers and so on...
Lets face it there are only five parameters relevant to the extrusion mechanism...
The behavior of the base material ( viscosity, melting point, glass transition temperature) which can be determined by try and error and worked with.
The pressure inside the barrel which could be controlled using a piezo pressure sensor and the rpm.
The temperature near the orifice which could be controlled using nichrome wire, and a thermistor.
The cooling of the filament which could be done with a fan & limiting the extrusion speed.
The torque of the spool which can be controlled with a geared dc motor.
[wasteforlife.org] It is not really necessary to have a extruder with a screw mechanism for low output machines, and that is exactly what I am planning to do.
I will get my mini cnc mill next week, and I will attempt to reproduce this mechanism. This can probably be all built without a lathe. All I have to do is implementing a probe mechanism for my mill to be able to make double sided mills. As it seems there is nothing in there what would require any high end tooling like a 4D lathe.
I am fairly certain that this can be done with under 500 euros worth of materials.
Screw them! (literally >
<)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2011 02:35PM by ElectricMucus.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why is popcorn so much more expensive than raw
> corn by the ton?
>
> Why is peanut butter so much more expensive than
> raw peanuts?
>
> etc etc etc
That is a very good point.
So do peanut butter & popcorn cost 20-figure the amount of their respective raw materials?
I think you all now the answer to that question... And peanut butter can be made with a decent grinder an popcorn machines cost about the same.
But that's not that big a problem, I think I've found a reasonable easy way to make a filament extrusion machine for home use.
I don't really believe statements that you'd have to measure the filament with lasers and so on...
Lets face it there are only five parameters relevant to the extrusion mechanism...
The behavior of the base material ( viscosity, melting point, glass transition temperature) which can be determined by try and error and worked with.
The pressure inside the barrel which could be controlled using a piezo pressure sensor and the rpm.
The temperature near the orifice which could be controlled using nichrome wire, and a thermistor.
The cooling of the filament which could be done with a fan & limiting the extrusion speed.
The torque of the spool which can be controlled with a geared dc motor.
[wasteforlife.org] It is not really necessary to have a extruder with a screw mechanism for low output machines, and that is exactly what I am planning to do.
I will get my mini cnc mill next week, and I will attempt to reproduce this mechanism. This can probably be all built without a lathe. All I have to do is implementing a probe mechanism for my mill to be able to make double sided mills. As it seems there is nothing in there what would require any high end tooling like a 4D lathe.
I am fairly certain that this can be done with under 500 euros worth of materials.
Screw them! (literally >
<)Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2011 02:35PM by ElectricMucus.
|
Re: Why are filament spools so expensive compared to pellets? July 04, 2011 05:02PM |
Sorry; maybe I've used the wrong term. It should have been 100% sell for the double price what you've bought. What ever that is.
I'm not all for nit-picking, I think it was clear what I meant.
I'm not all for nit-picking, I think it was clear what I meant.
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