Getting started with electronics (Gen7?)

Hey, Guys

I recently came across RepRap and immediatly got interested because it covers a range of topics I always were interested.
As recommended I've done a bit of reading and is keen to start getting into building a Prusa i3. Instead of just ordering a kid or just start ordering every single part I thought it would be best to get my head around the electronics first.
The Gen7 seems to be a good option for someone keen to understand the electronics but at the same time doesn't hold a degree in electronical engineering. I know my way around a soldering iron and know the difference between a resistor and a capasitor and can read circuit board plans but that is probably as far is it goes (I probably got a few terms wrong in that sentence which provides more insight on my level of understanding :-) )
If I get to a point where I've got my Gen7 hooked up and have a few stepper motors executing commands I would be happy and keen to build further on that.
I thought about buying one of the options from Traumflug and add stepper motors to that. And on top of that some opensource software. I already have an soldering iron and a few other basics.
Do you recon my approach will work and help me to learn more about the electronics?
Anything else I need not mentioned above?
Any pitfalls to watch out for?

I think Gen7 is good and Traumflug is awesome guy and top contributor. My opinion is that if you build and debug your own made electronics then you will understand much more than the usual user.

Ofc ppls will help if you want to learn more, thats why the forum is here. I think also what is important about this, is to have your opinions sort of flexible, and be prepared to view other ppls standing point, and be ready to change yours when you meet something better. Development depends on ability to change one's self, sort of speaking will not evolve if not let yourself change.

I think you will need a programmer, i would recommend AVRISP mkII There would ofc be other alternatives, perhaps like 10-15$ cheaper, but might require things like own drivers, perhaps other changes, and may have some limitations like <128K. But that programmer is by atmel, can program full 256K if needed (mega2560), perhaps bigger range of chips, perhaps bit better support in many programs.

One thing which i would consider pitfall as from my own experience, falling to the temptation to try test a board at an incomplete / intermediary stage. I had few of those and while thinking that i had in mind a clear part of schematic that should of work in my head, the board would be at a stage actually something different than what i had in mind, but differences are hard to realize between a half schematic and a half populated board. So now i would not test something unless it is 100% fully populated pcb.

I'd recommend getting an arduino kit - this can double up as the programmer, so it's not a waste, also handy if you're not that into software (I am, hardware's a secondary thing to me)

I cut my own PCB (both Gen7 personal implementation and Heated PCB.) as I have the equipment (I built a lightbox for £30 as a small project before I went down the reprap road), and I'd done some board prototyping a little while back (messing around with PIC's) and having that experience and knowledge helps me help others in our hackspace.

Go for it, you'll be an asset to your community when you see it through

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2014 04:13AM by majic79.

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NoobMan
My opinion is that if you build and debug your own made electronics then you will understand much more than the usual user.

While I agree with that in general and why I built my own printer instead of just buying a ready made one or a kit, etching your own board, soldering the components in, and all the debugging that goes along with it can either be greatly rewarding, or incredibly fustrating when it doesn't work. You might learn some about the electronics but you aren't learning circuit theroy or why a particular part is being used where it's being used when you solder your own board, or what might not work if say you get a component backwards. The only thing you're learning is how tedious it is to solder all those component leads. In the end, for me, I learned more actually working with the electronics on my printer then looking at the electronics components and schematics.

Can you really learn something about electronics if you can't even replace the components? What you learn is probably more on how to attach an electronics.

From my experience, Gen7s usually run on the spot. Two exceptions: bad solderings and Windows USB driver issues.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

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NoobMan
My opinion is that if you build and debug your own made electronics then you will understand much more than the usual user.

I think you will need a programmer, i would recommend AVRISP mkII
So now i would not test something unless it is 100% fully populated pcb.

Wow. I've got a lot to learn. So I need a programmer too... I wish there was a schema somewhere with the full list of components (on a high level). This will include (lets hope I get the terminology roughly right):
* Programmer (example AVRISP)
* Microcontroller board and Microcontroller (like Gen7)
* Stepper Drivers (already built into Gen7?)
* Stepper Motors
* .... ?
I think I've got more reading to do!

What do you mean with debugging your own electronics? Do you mean try .... evaluate .... troubleshoot .... fix ... try again?

Thanks for the tip on completely populating the pcb ... that's the type of practical advice I was hoping for.

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majic79
also handy if you're not that into software (I am, hardware's a secondary thing to me)

So, what is your recommendation for someone that might be into the software. I do programming as part of my job and can see that it might be fun getting behind the software. So, for software there is CAD and CAM, or is there more? As far as I understand the CAM software interprets the CAD software and turns it into usable instructions for the microcontroller. Is there further software involved?

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Rudbot
I wish there was a schema somewhere with the full list of components (on a high level).

This is mostly an open source community, so the sources should be available for download. If you find some set of electronics without the source files, then dont buy that. Beware there are some like that which do not provide the source files, those are practically closed source even if they claim to be open. If you get those and you want to debug or make expansions on electronics without source files it will very hard to do so, and others will not be able to help just based on pictures or drawings. So when you buy electronics, download and open sources first, or if these are not available then simply do not buy - no matter how nice the offer and publicity is. Imagine you have an issue with a closed source electronics and post a picture and ask a question, well anybody answering would be just making guesswork, because without source files ppls do not really know what is there. Pictures and schematic drawings are limited in this regard.

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Rudbot
What do you mean with debugging your own electronics? Do you mean try .... evaluate .... troubleshoot .... fix ... try again?

Yup. If you want to build your own and learn, then for the best give some attention to this side of things. On the same line of thinking, you may not strictly need a programmer if you get the chip already with bootloader on it, but if something happens then a programmer certainly comes in nicely. Same thing you may do without source files if you do not plan to do anything outside a regular use, but again when you have any kind of issues, those source files become essential.

There is a firmware that runs on microcontroller, if you want to get into that, maybe instead of a basic programmer perhaps a debugger could provide more functionality.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2014 09:45AM by NoobMan.

What do you want? I won't tell you what to do, but you started with talking about making a gen7 board - that means cutting a circuit board, drilling holes and soldering it all. There's a couple of ways to do it - the "classical" way (etching a design printed to a mask - making a Printed Circuit Board) and all the chemicals and stages required for that to happen, or milling a board (simpler in some regards, but more expensive investment in equipment, unless you know someone that can mill it for you).

So before you start down that route, you have to ask if you understand the process to make the board (I'd completed several other projects before I etched my own Gen7 board) otherwise you have to learn those steps first. If you're not that interested in etching/milling a board, perhaps someone else can do it, then you just have the job of populating it.

Elsewise, buy a board from Traumflug and then source the parts, or get a sanguinololu kit, and solder it all together.

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Rudbot
So, what is your recommendation for someone that might be into the software. I do programming as part of my job and can see that it might be fun getting behind the software. So, for software there is CAD and CAM, or is there more? As far as I understand the CAM software interprets the CAD software and turns it into usable instructions for the microcontroller. Is there further software involved?

Well, a normal process is: CAD design to create .stl model, then Slice (Slic3r/Skeinforge) to generate G-Code followed by the CAM software (pronteface) that delivers GCode to the firmware (Marlin/Teacup/Sprinter etc) - I've not got involved in those projects yet (I used Skeinforge, I fell out with it after calibration and went to Slic3r and got better results) however I think they're all fairly stable, but there may be some development required of them.

My own progression was "I don't have a 3D printer, I want one because my mates one looks cool, but I want to expand my knowledge along the way. I know how to design and etch boards, I'll do my own, then load it with off the shelf firmware". What's your progression plan? If you want to do the software side more than the hardware, get a kit and an Arduino, use the Arduino to learn how to move steppers and do interesting stuff with that, then you'll be comfortable flashing your own firmware to the Gen7/Derived board you've soldered together

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2014 04:59AM by majic79.

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majic79
If you're not that interested in etching/milling a board, perhaps someone else can do it, then you just have the job of populating it.

Elsewise, buy a board from Traumflug and then source the parts, or get a sanguinololu kit, and solder it all together.

CAD design to create .stl model, then Slice (Slic3r/Skeinforge) to generate G-Code followed by the CAM software (pronteface) that delivers GCode to the firmware (Marlin/Teacup/Sprinter etc)

If you want to do the software side more than the hardware, get a kit and an Arduino, use the Arduino to learn how to move steppers and do interesting stuff with that, then you'll be comfortable flashing your own firmware to the Gen7/Derived board you've soldered together

majic79, your response is very helpful. I understand the software "flow" better now and got a feeling for what I would like to do.

I am definitely not that interested in etching boards and will rather learn that later if I feel I want to get more into it. But I want to understand the electronics as well as getting involved in software. Maybe that is talking on a bit too much at the start, so I'll focus a bit more on the software side since I've got more skill in that area. So, here is my progression plan as you suggested I draw up:
1) Get my hands onto the very basic hardware I need to start playing with stepper motors - preferable a "kit" or something similar where I do not much more than soldering it together. I also don't want to spend hours online looking for parts so I am willing to pay a bit more to get a kit that includes all the part. At the same time, I would like to understand what I'm doing and not just follow instructions blindly so that I can improve my understanding of electronics. I guess that can be solved by just reading while building.
2) Play around a bit with software to get the steppers moving, including doing a bit of my own programming. This part sounds the most exciting!
3) Get a feeling for what hardware/software options I prefer and expand on that
4) Understand & get the rest of "non-core" software/hardware like end stops and CAD software
5) Start understanding the mechanics of a RepRap, most likely a Prusa i3 as recommended
6) Build my first RepRap
7) Rinse & Repeat

So for (1), what is the very basic electronics I need? It seems if I get the Sanguinololu or possibly Gen7 (which includes Stepper Drivers), and a number of Stepper motors I'm set. Or do I still need a programmer as mentioned by one of the other responses?

For (2), does that mean getting into writing my own basic firmware?

Apologies if my questions are basic and repetitive - I'm struggling to get my head around all the jargon, but I think I'm slowly getting there.

Thanks to all for helping.

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Rudbot
Or do I still need a programmer as mentioned by one of the other responses?

It seems I can load the bootstrap from my PC, at least for Sanguinololu: [reprap.org]

It's the same procedure for every ATmega based RepRap electronics and also for every Arduino. Especially the Arduino folks have quite some knowledge in this area, you can use all of this. What works on an Arduino works on a RepRap electronics, too, core design of both is the same.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY