Finalization. . .

Alright.

After almost a year of hell trying to deal with Botmill, I've finally got my Mendel almost functioning.
The X, Y, and Z axes run fine. When I hit the "run extruder" button in Repsnapper a stream of liquid plastic comes out. Etc.

HOWEVER, when I actually try to print a part, the plastic doesn't seem to come out fast enough to actually make anything.
It just sort of trails down then gets dragged around by the extruder as it moves.

I'm running PLA at 218 degrees.
I have no covering on the bed (the bed is steel.)

I don't know what to do next. . . everything appears to be ready to go except the plastic.

Any ideas?

Thanks guys.
Sincerely,
Mr Black

I'm guessing your temperature is too hot and you need something on the bed for the PLA to stick to. Get some basic 3M blue painters tape, I've been it using for PLA with an unheated bed for almost 2 years with good results. The PLA sticks great assuming your first layer sort of squishes down lower than the nozzle diameter, and it pops off pretty when the print job is done. Occasionally it adheres so well that the tape tears, but that's cheap, a roll should last you years and years.

@MKouri.
What temp would you suggest?

Quote

It just sort of trails down then gets dragged around by the extruder as it moves.

Sounds like the head is too high on the first layer. It should be equal to the layer height or a bit lower. That means the gap is less than the filament diameter, so it is pressed down rather than "trailing down".

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

first of all, PLA can do 180C for extrusion... try that instead and report back.

second... I also bought a kit from botmill. that was about 2 months ago and i've built and got it working, they do have crappy support tho.. i sent 3 emails to which none have gotten a reply until i started complaining on here about them, then shaan finally replied my emails.

initially i had the same problems as u did.. the extrusion wasn't sticking to the heated bed and was just being dragged around by the nozzle.. then i double checked the filament and found that they had sent me ABS instead of PLA like their website said they would. so here's the steps i took to get mine printing

if u have ABS instead of PLA, set hotend temperature to 260C, i haven't gotten any PLA to try yet, but from what i read on here, 180C is a good temp for PLA.

lay down a layer of blue painters tape on the print bed. neither ABS nor PLA adheres well to the aluminum print bed botmill supplies.

level the print bed and make sure your nozzle is not too far from the bed. u should be able to slip a piece of paper between the bed and the nozzle and move it around with a little bit of drag.
after a bit of experience with my printer, i found the aluminum bed they supplied isn't perfectly flat. so i went to a glass shop and had them cut an 8" by 9" 3mm thick piece of annealed glass, and i simply taped it with painters tape and clipped it onto my print bed with binder clips.

watch the video on skeinforge settings and follow the settings. pay particular attention to the ones in regards to feedrate and flowrate.

after doing all of those, when i proceeded to print, my nozzle started ripping up the tape.. this may or may not happen to you. but for me, i had to adjust the skeinforge settings a bit.. in particular under the "Raft" tab

Base layer thickness over layer thickness
Base nozzle lift over base layer thickness

if your nozzle is ripping up your tape, increase your nozzle lift for your base layer.

hope that helps u.

Update: I decreased the temp to 180 like you said. The plastic is still liquid-y, so I assume that must mean it IS PLA.

Second, I put down tape, but it's a moot point so far, because I don't think the extruder is running fast enough.

When I press "Run Extruder" it still will run out a nice stream of liquid plastic, but when it's actually trying to print something, the stream just doesn't come out enough.

How can I modify the rate at which it releases plastic?

MrBlack, I know your pain, I bought a Botmill lesson in frustration about a year before you. My plastic parts were so bad that eventually I bought a set from nophead and have been using that printer ever since. I see others have already given you excellent advice about the temperature, initial Z height, and ensuring your bed is flat.

You didn't say what software you are using so its difficult for us to make specific recommendations about how to adjust the extruder speed. I strongly suggest that if you are using the Repsnapper and Skeinforge combination which I believe Botmill ships on a USB key that you move to Slic3r and Pronterface.

Check out richrap's blog articles on Slic3r at [richrap.blogspot.com] and the subsequent two other articles - they will get you started on creating quality g-code with a LOT less frustration than configuring Skeinforge.

For interfacing with the printer itself download Pronterface (sorry, don't have a link immediately handy, google for it, the precompiled versions for Mac and Windows already have Slic3r integrated).

@Mkouri.

It's good to have someone to sympathize with. I know all the frustrations Botmill has to offer customers.
I didn't even get my printer or anything other than "sorry, we'll send it soon" as communication for almost 4 months.
Between missing parts (no extruder, etc.), shoddy communication, and broken contractual obligations, I've had easily the worst customer experience of my life just trying to DEAL with Botmill, and it'll be a year in June now, since I made my mistake of trying to buy what they said they'd deliver.

Anyway, I just got the thing's assembly all complete a few days ago, so I've only worked inside RepSnapper, so far.
I haven't installed Skeinforge or anything else to work with it. . . I just downloaded the GCode on a nickel calibration test from Thingiverse and I've been trying to get that to work.

Pronterface will let me adjust the flow of the printer?

Either way, I'll look into Slic3r and Pronterface.

I had the same problem with the botmill hot end. It could be the steps per mm setting in your firmware is wrong. Botmill never answered my email about which firmware they had installed or what settings they used. I installed marlin firmware and then calibrated it myself using this as a guide: [richrap.blogspot.ca]
I always had to print PLA at 210 degrees with the hot end that came with it until if finally failed. I've ordered a new hot end (not from botmill).

MrBlack Wrote:
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> It's good to have someone to sympathize with.

Oh, there's lots of us here who were burned by Botmill, so we have tons of company. Luckily for you, a lot of us have already blazed a trail to success you can follow. Please do read richrap's blog entry, getting the extruder tuned (ie accurate e steps) is critical to quality prints, and then you won't need to adjust the flow rate. Otherwise, it'll be by gosh and by golly seat of your pants adjustments on every print job, especially any time you change speeds. Trust me, been there, done that, and have a tee shirt to prove it.

I am pretty sure your current problem is a mismatch between the old style printer firmware tuning on the amount of length of plastic that gets extruded versus the modern style of using the input length and nozzle diameter to do volumetric calculations. The modern method means that you can adjust the travel speed and then system automagically compensates to keep the extruded plastic width constant (I've oversimplified and probably gotten some terms wrong, but hopefully you'll understand).

Anyway, you are going to have to learn to update the firmware on your printer. It isn't all that difficult, just daunting the first time. And since you will be updating the firmware, it's a good idea to adopt Marlin (or Sprinter, I hear that's been much improved lately). Marlin is the latest fad, and I recommend it primarily because you can adjust some of the key parameters on-the-fly without going thru a recompile and reinstall sequence. The other major improvement is acceleration support. You will be amazed at how much better the printer sounds, at the reduced vibration, and the better quality output when the print head doesn't try to immediately go from zero to full speed.

With the above said, no Pronterface doesn't directly give you control over the extrusion multiplier, but you won't need that control once you've tuned the extruder.

I don't know what hot end Botmill supplies these days. The one I got from them looked like it came from Mendel-Parts, and was a couple revisions behind Camiel's latest designs. Those can be made to work, but they are very sensitive to under or over tightening the PEEK block and either compressing the PTFE (Teflon) thermal barrier or not securing it enough - they tend to break at the threading of the PTFE. The latest fad in hot end design is exemplified by the J-head (look on the wiki here). I have a couple, and they are good. I also like and recommend the Makergear hot ends, they pioneered the groovemount system used by J-head and others and the nozzles are replaceable. I don't have a fan or heated bed, and I find the ceramic-coated nichrome heating element heats up and cools down faster than the larger thermal mass of the J-head heater block.

I know you just want to finally get on with your original goal of printing, but you're 90% there now, invest one more or a few more days in learning to update the firmware and tune the extruder and then you will finally be able to accomplish what you set out to do over a year ago - make amazing objects. Otherwise, you will keep encountering setbacks every time you tweak any little thing.

Good luck, don't get discouraged, and read as much as you can stand of the older threads posted here and in the blogs that people recommend. Most of us have already encountered and solved many of the problems you may hit, and you'll find the reprap community is unbelievably supportive.

Sounds good.

I'm trying not to get discouraged. . . But I guess I thought I was past the stage of wanting to throw the thing out a window after I got all the assembly done, motors finished (two of which we had to re-wire because they ran backwards), things jigged, etc.
*Sigh.*

Does anyone have links for Marlin and maybe a guide to changing the firmware on the printer?
I'm about to read RichRap's blog, but so far what I've seen he says "ask me if you don't know" but doesn't necessarily explain it there. . . I'm about to delve deeper and see if I can find out.

Thanks again to Mkouri and everyone else for the help.

it's not going to work if u don't install skeinforge and slice your test object with skeinforge with the feedrate/flowrate settings in that video. the preinstalled firmware is calibrated to run flowrate at around 415.0..

MrBlack,
I found you a link for Marlin - [daid.mine.nu]
This has been highly recommended as a nice front end that builds Marlin for you after you fill out the web form, I started with the beta from github (google for Marlin and Erik Zalm) and therefore compile my own so I cannot walk you thru using this, sorry.

As far as changing the firmware on the printer, use the search function here on the wiki to find guidance on how to do it. You will need to identify your particular hardware and need to know the speed at which it currently communicates with your pc, that should be accessible from your Repsnapper console. If you compile your own firmware you will also need Arduino software from arduino.cc, I am not sure if that's needed with the marlin builder referenced above.

Okay. Let me see if I've got it straight.

1.) Arduino: I need Arduino to be able to reprogram the firmware on the printer.
2.) Slic3r: to replace Skeinforge for generating the GCode.
3.) Pronterface: to replace Repsnapper for controlling the printer.
4.) Marlin: for making the printer run smoothly?

Would that be a correct list of all the things I'd need?

MrBlack Wrote:
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> Okay. Let me see if I've got it straight.
>
> 1.) Arduino: I need Arduino to be able to
> reprogram the firmware on the printer.
> 2.) Slic3r: to replace Skeinforge for generating
> the GCode.
> 3.) Pronterface: to replace Repsnapper for
> controlling the printer.
> 4.) Marlin: for making the printer run smoothly?
>
> Would that be a correct list of all the things I'd
> need?
You got it. Marlin is the firmware that will make the printer run better. Arduino is the compiler and installer for your firmware (marlin). Slic3r will generate gcode of comparable quality to Skeinforge, in seconds instead of tens of minutes. And Pronterface is your console for the printer that sends the Gcodes.

MrBlack,

I don't want to add any more info to this discussion which might add to the confusion but I have had VERY good results from using Repetier host software. It already has Slic3r built in and has a nice 3d GCode visualizer. It runs well with Marlin and has been my favorite out of all the host programs. I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties getting your machine up and running, wish you the best of luck.

Nightmares, horror stories and other fun things about botmill.

Like many of you I purchased a axis kit, got it, few months ago, minus some filament that was ordered. But the parts were there.

In general the kit was just thrown in a box, parts were in bags, and wrapped and just sort of all over the place. However not one document saying, hey congrats and thanks, now go to our site and click on this or that and get started.

I figured it out after looking at the box like a puppy looking at an empty bowl of water,.

I have built a few things that were far more complicated than this kit, or at least that is what I thought.
I thought wrong. To those of you who have fought with this process to you I give great kudos to even getting the darn thing built. really.

I built things, and then I came to find out that the build was out of order, so I have taken the kit apart about as many times as I have put it together. Mr. Black seems to have similar issues. It seems that somethings of the past while outmoded like manuals are gone but at least Botmill could have done a Good job of walking you through the build with explanations. Not everyone out there is a hacker par excel-lance.

Ok so two weeks later the printer was completed, rigged, squared and away I went, I got the printer set up, put the filament in, heated the bet, gave it a few hits on the run extruder button and nothing, that went on for a week or so, nothing. Not a week of 8 hour days but an hour here and there. For no reason at all I looked in the bag of parts that were seemingly left over. There was this one round part, it goes between the hot end assembly and the x motor assembly. I swear I never saw it in any plans, or build shots. But I found the 30 or so images for the wades extruder and on two images there that little part was. No explanation that without that part the printer was just going to do, well nothing.

I took the head apart again, cleaned it, no small task, and installed that pesky little round part, bolted everything back together, and again hit all the right buttons in repsnapper, waited for a few minutes, hit the extrude button about 4 times and holy moses out comes filament at about .4 mm. I did a dance, not a pretty sight, and said ok lets make something, how about a simple circle, hockey puck thing. Blue tape was down, bed was on, hot end adjusted along with the bed, and push print. It worked, my first 3D printed part.

It was horrible, it looked like a hockey puck from about 50 feet but up close it looked like a lot of gooey, blobby, stringy things that had somehow melted in the right place to make this reject puck.

I still must be doing something wrong, it could not be the hardware, or the software....it had to be me.

I am in the process of releasing a 3D desgin package for 3D printers that saves STL files. So the major effort was just to make sure the code we are making was accurate and viable, it is, but after a few more objects I was convinced that there was something wrong still with the printer. Had I forgotten more parts, were they in the wrong order, what was wrong?

I reached out to Botmill and they did respond but not with any help more with things like "this works fine on the printer on my desk" OR, "let me look into that, to never hear back from them. They do not make the printers some other company prints the parts and they, botmill sort of throws all the parts in a box...i think that was where I started this babble.

There are a lot of things that I have learned and there is no reason I had to learn them. I regret getting this printer and dealing with Botmill and would not do business with them in the future. Have you ever gone to the site and seen a person LIVE on the chat line. I have not, wonder why.

Now a new journey, the reprap irc, ask questions, hope for an answer. Sometimes you get an answer sometimes you just get in the way of the converation about the kegger up the street and some esoteric stuff about string theory. Both of which I like but......

The short of all this is that there is no reason for a commercial company to act with such a lack of realness, of being aware of the problems and having well documented answers. I think that there are not too many unique things that happen in this arena, and it seems to me that botmill should have seen them all, taken pictures and posted the how to fix this dialog next to the picture.

Are your belts set at the right tension..... Well maybe, how would you know if they were or were not. Well if they are not set right, you will get crap for objects. Why, it has to do with mass and inertia and crappy gears and......But recently I had objects that seem to print good for 1/4 then not, then good again and then not, and the parts that were bad looked like a gloppy mess but the part of the object that looked good, was pretty good.

I fixed it by adjusting the x belt to be just a bit tighter, nothing dramatically tighter, ok I do adjust it too much, and things got really strange,every object that I tried to print looked like a set of stairs as the x moved by 1/8 inch to the home side of that axis. I backed it off a bit, and now I am getting better objects, hell I even have a pretty good hockey puck,. not perfect but mucho better than what I had from the first go around.

I have decided to put Marlin firmware in the gen 6 board that I have, it was a journey to get it to compile,. more my fault but I did a good compile today, going to update in a few hours, hopefully the printer will like the firmware and I can quit using repsnapper, (not a horrible product just not supported anymore)

Getting things to stick to the bed, Blue tape works, one layer more than that, no so good.

Temperature is another area, the thermistor table in 5D firmware is not set to really help, its just set to something, you can of course adjust the head from Repsnap but I dont think it is very reliable. In my case its about 30 degrees OFF to the cool side, meaning that if it says 200 degrees its probably 170. that could be different for others, and the temp of the filament coming out the hotend is very touchy.

I will update if anyone is interested on how the firm ware update goes. But if you have questions and if I have an answer I will be happy to let you know what I know.

This is not yet a consumer level product, my wife suggested after 3 months that I throw the damn thing in the trash and take up race car driving. I am keeping the printer, its way cheaper and in the end, I want to print parts for the race car.

Moral of story.... YOU AINT ALONE.
Mike

There are certain phrases that I cringe to see in IRC - "I bought a kit" is one of them.

The issue is that the people who are making the kits assume that the people who are buying the kits bought a kit only because they didn't want to spend the time tracking down the parts themselves. Once you make that assumption, then leaving out documentation follows naturally - "It's a Prusa kit - use the Prusa documentation on the web".

My best advice is that people self-source the parts. It takes longer, but you know exactly what you're getting, and usually have a good idea of how it all goes together.

My other bit of advice is that when you go to the IRC channel for advice, be prepared with a photo of your print. In many cases the regulars there can take a look at a photo of your vaguely hockey puck shaped blob of plastic, and tell you exactly what you need to do to improve it. Photos have the added advantage of calling attention to your plight - none of us can resist clicking on a link to someone else's train-wreck