Hello.

My name is Arthur Wolf and I'm currently involved in the Contraptor ( contraptor.org ) project, trying to help develop a metric version of it.

I've been following the reprap project from the beginning, but never actually made a reprap machine, because the parts are ( were at least ) hard to find, and expensive ( that's relative ... ).

But the parts are just plastic, and that's usually cheap. I mean when you buy a tv, the plastic is not the biggest part of the cost. So I asked a few plastic molding companies, and it turns out you can get the reprap parts made for cheap, but of course you need to get a lot of them made.
I got quotations based on this file : [www.thingiverse.com] , some very expensive, some very reasonable, but all with a high minimum order quantity.
So I can get cheap reprap ( mendel ) parts kit made from ABS plastic, but I need to order 300 of them.

I would be selling these for 30$ ( 22€, 20 pounds ) a kit ( including a 5% donation the the reprap research foundation : [www.rrrf.org] ), plus shipping from France.
I also would be happy to sell them to reprap-kit-selling companies, that would reduce machine and shipping costs if you are, say in the US.

Nothing is ordered yet, I need to get samples first to make sure the quality is ok ( and make my first mendel with the samples ).

What I wanted to know is : do you think there are 300 people in the world interested in cheap mendel plastic parts ? 
Are you ?

If you answer "interested" bellow, you will be at the top of the shipping queue if there is someday a shipping queue.

Tell me what you think about this, and if you have any questions or dragon flames.
Thanks for reading !

I made that sheet nearly a year ago, it is WAY out of date.

I think a lot of people would be interested, but considering we have never seen you in IRC, you don't have a blog, you have not contributed anything anywhere I have ever seen, and you have posted 3 times here... I just don't see giving you any money

Care to share how your planning on getting these parts so cheap? I have priced commerical mass prototyping companies, and always got 10 times the number your showing. Also your $9000 total income (30*300) seems like you might be looking at injection molding, these parts would need a pretty radical redesign for injection molding, you plan on doing that yourself?

I would love to help you, but we see lots of big promises with followed by a request for money around here, usually followed by people wondering where their money went a few weeks later. Care to fill in some of the holes here?

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

spacexula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I made that sheet nearly a year ago, it is WAY out
> of date.
>

Any idea where I can find an up to date one ?
I'll do it myself if I can't find one, that'll get me learning the tools.
I have absolutely no experience with reprap stuff ( but of similar things, I have a contraptor mini-cnc ), but I'll be getting a huxley soon.

> I think a lot of people would be interested,

That was the question Thanks.

> but
> considering we have never seen you in IRC, you
> don't have a blog, you have not contributed
> anything anywhere I have ever seen, and you have
> posted 3 times here... I just don't see giving you
> any money

I'm not asking for any money, no pre-order or anything like that.
I'm just some guy with a bit of money on the side who's thinking : "hey, why not use it to put 300 more repraps into the world".
IF ( big if ) I ever get to the point where I get the parts made, first thing I'll do is ship free kits to any important reprap contributor that asks. That should build a bit of trust, and more importantly give me good opinion on the parts themselves.
Then I'll setup a webshop, with paypal, google checkout, DHL shipping and all that kind of things.

>
> Care to share how your planning on getting these
> parts so cheap?

Well I asked for quotes around, and they came back very expensive, but it always said that it would be much less if I order more.
Going up to 300 gave me that kind of prices.
If I end up seeing I'm not up to this project, I'll gladly post the quotes here for someone else to look into them.

> I have priced commerical mass
> prototyping companies, and always got 10 times the
> number your showing. Also your $9000 total income
> (30*300) seems like you might be looking at
> injection molding, these parts would need a pretty
> radical redesign for injection molding, you plan
> on doing that yourself?

I was a bit surprised too not to have any comments about the parts needing to be modified.
That does not seem to be a problem to the manufacturers, but I'll need to get the samples to be sure there's no mistake ...

The evident problem with this project I see is of course : if this is feasible, why has nobody done it yet, and why is everybody selling the plastic parts for 200+ $ ? Probably because I'm wrong somewhere, thus the forum post, and the getting samples first.

>
> I would love to help you, but we see lots of big
> promises

No promises here, just a project, with maybe a quest for advice

> with followed by a request for money
> around here,

None of that either, I have the money to get the initial order made, I'm just not sure if I'll do it.

> usually followed by people wondering
> where their money went a few weeks later. Care to
> fill in some of the holes here?

About the "I don't know you" part, I've been following the reprap project from the beginning, but never made any noise.
Up until recently ( discovering arduino and contraptor ) I was only into software ( free software actually ).
For a short resumé, I participated in the first Google Summer of Code, and I participate in various projects around Perl and Perl6.

About the project, it changed ( I had the idea only a few days ago ), I will probably start by getting huxley parts made.
The cost won't change much, so the price won't either, but it'll be a lot less to store around the house here
I ordered a full huxley, so I'll have much more knowledge about all this when I start using it.

Absolutely all the aspects of this project are completely new to me, so I guess I have a high probability of failing, but that's how I like to learn

If you want to avoid getting burned.. .I suggest you embark on a project to read, full time, for 2 or 3 weeks before comitting any money to a 'path'...

There are lots of people doing reprap (all of us by definition, developers).. all with differing opinions...

For you to commit money, aimed at selling 300 machines.. (though at 30 dollars it shouldn't be that hard).. working out which paths have legs, and which are 'flash in the pan'.. could see the difference between success and failure.

One thing I'd consider is work out how many machines the new kit sellers are selling... I'm sure if you entered the market with their kit.. they would help you sell them, and you could (based on my 'feel') be looking at 1000 units, rather than 300...

None of this information comes without working for it.. as everyone has a different idea on what are the facts.

Read blogs, hang out on IRC. Read this forum, read the dev mailing list.

Al...

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[araspitfire.blogspot.com]

I was a bit surprised too not to have any comments about the parts needing to be modified.
That does not seem to be a problem to the manufacturers, but I'll need to get the samples to be sure there's no mistake ...

The evident problem with this project I see is of course : if this is feasible, why has nobody done it yet, and why is everybody selling the plastic parts for 200+ $ ? Probably because I'm wrong somewhere, thus the forum post, and the getting samples first.

There's also the slight concern: "Oh, hey, Paul and Rob and Energetic and Reinoud figured out how to do up a Delta! We're all making Deltas now."

As in, you wouldn't want a bunch of injection molds for Darwin parts on your hands.

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-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.

---

Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!

Hi Arthur Wolf,

Nice to know you.

I'm Carter from Better Molds in China. We are a professional manufacturer specialized in CNC machined parts and molds since 1993. We have abundant experience in making various machined parts. For more information of us, please visit www.better-molds.com.

We are very interested in your project, hope to cooperate with you.

Sincerely yours,

Carter
Sales Department
Better-Mold Industrial Co.,Ltd
E-Mail: carter_molder@yahoo.com
Web: www.better-molds.com

Hi Athur Wolf

I would be interested in this offer
As I am in France, you can contact me also in French

I think I'd be interested in the parts, I really would like to build my own RepRap.

Skywalker, Nerdy3.14159265, this appears to be a dead thread.

Try [reprap.org]

or our marketplace forum, or ebay, or

irc://chat.freenode.net/#reprap

Also, you should probably join our official dev list, since you're probably official devs:
[reprap.org]

---

-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.

---

Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!

Skywalker, Nerdy3.14159265 : I'm not yet offering any part for sale, this is just a project.

As one would expect, turns out that after a lot of talking none of the companies are able to make molds for the reprap parts from the thingiverse STL files. Still in negotiation with several companies to have a suitable mold designed, but I'm more and more giving up on the idea of doing this myself.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2011 04:25AM by arthurwolf.

I think the molds are actually made out of steel or some type of metal. There's a reason it costs so much to make one; it takes a lot of work.
[en.wikipedia.org]
half way down the page you can see a lot of examples of molds:
[upload.wikimedia.org]
[upload.wikimedia.org]
[upload.wikimedia.org]

Quote

Molds are built through two main methods: standard machining and EDM. Standard Machining, in its conventional form, has historically been the method of building injection molds. With technological development, CNC machining became the predominant means of making more complex molds with more accurate mold details in less time than traditional methods.

The electrical discharge machining (EDM) or spark erosion process has become widely used in mold making. As well as allowing the formation of shapes that are difficult to machine, the process allows pre-hardened molds to be shaped so that no heat treatment is required. Changes to a hardened mold by conventional drilling and milling normally require annealing to soften the mold, followed by heat treatment to harden it again. EDM is a simple process in which a shaped electrode, usually made of copper or graphite, is very slowly lowered onto the mold surface (over a period of many hours), which is immersed in paraffin oil. A voltage applied between tool and mold causes spark erosion of the mold surface in the inverse shape of the electrode.[29]

Quote

The cost of manufacturing molds depends on a very large set of factors ranging from number of cavities, size of the parts (and therefore the mold), complexity of the pieces, expected tool longevity, surface finishes and many others. The initial cost is great, however the piece part cost is low, so with greater quantities the overall price decreases.

oh this is cool... a lego mold:
[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2011 12:05AM by An Original Name.

please consider prusa reprap, it might be cheaper.

An Original Name Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the molds are actually made out of steel
> or some type of metal. There's a reason it costs
> so much to make one; it takes a lot of work.

Well a few 100s of $ for a mold is not so much if you consider the price repraped reprap parts sell on ebay these days ...
What actually costs much is to have it designed for parts that were not designed for molding in the first place.
In their current state none of the reprap designs are 100% moldable ... they all have some parts that can't be molded ... what's needed is to re-design these to be moldable ...
The person that will do that will do a very great favor to the reprap community ( will reducte the cost of plastic parts by more that 20x ).

> please consider prusa reprap, it might be cheaper.

Yes, also asked quotation for prussa and huxley, it was even less expensive for both, but again, that's a price that means something only if there is a mold design available, which there is none at the moment.

Any mold-designing white-knight around ?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2011 04:27AM by arthurwolf.

[blog.makezine.com]

Ok , the mold exists, the question is now : who will get the parts made in china ?
I will, once I have build my Huxley, and printed a Prusa with it, and if nobody else does it in the meantime ...

Anybody have any idea how many sets of parts are sold a year/month for mendel style repraps?

I've been plugging away at making injection moldable parts in my spare time. At a price of $100 per set you still need to sell 400-500 sets to break even. Every single mold costs a minimum of about $3000 (via protomold). Needless to say, reducing the unique part count is the best way to bring down the price, and that is my current objective.

Getting steel molds, even from china, will take VERY high volumes of parts. If someone ever does it it will bring the cost of a set to about $30 at quantities of THOUSANDS per year. I don't think anybody has the 100K initial investment for that kind of uncertainty yet.

hey Arthurwolf,
I would love to get in on this offer. I am sure that, if you get them made, all of them will sell. As soon as get made, I will help you get rid of them if necessary. My name is Tim. You can email at tbdonegan@yahoo.com

It looks like a serious effort is about to begin to make a Mendel style set of injection molded parts.

Keep your eyes peeled. Some pretty awesome things might start to appear before 2012 rolls around

One thing to consider is, the Mendel design is subject to change often. Mendel was state of the art a year ago, now this is Prusa Mendel, and likely this changes again until 2012.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Don't worry. We've got a few improvements of our own and do not plan on limiting ourselves by the "current" design. Plus, as long as it works well and is inexpensive, the specific version age is rather trivial.

.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2011 08:37PM by snoopy.

Getting steel molds, even from china, will take VERY high volumes of parts. If someone ever does it it will bring the cost of a set to about $30 at quantities of THOUSANDS per year. I don't think anybody has the 100K initial investment for that kind of uncertainty yet.

Uncertainty is the key word here. High Command might order everyone to do up Deltas instead of Mendels next week.

Or not. Dunno if High Command knows about secret team "Δ".

I don't see where the research money will come from to further improve the Mendel. In order for anyone to improve the Mendel, one would have to make a living off of selling Mendel Products. Without profits, there would be no research money to further improve the Mendel

Sometimes it's love of the art, really. Folk are doing up the Sanguinololu
http://reprap.org/wiki/Sanguinololu
even though it's not entrepreneur-driven research. (yet)

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-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.

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Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything!

.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2011 08:37PM by snoopy.

snoopy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This hobby requires a lot of money. This is
> probably the most expensive hobby I've ever gotten
> into.


I have built 5 Mendel, and have not put a dime into this hobby since I started a 18 months ago (I did get my Makerbot for $950).

This hobby requires a lot of money if you make it require a lot of money. For what I spent on my Makerbot last year I could put together 2 Prusa Mendel.

No matter what, I would be printing Mendel Parts if they are $30 a piece. I print because I like helping people, and enjoy the process.

Cast resin parts are now selling for $50 with ZERO competition, expect $30 cast parts in the next few months. You guys are more than welcome to get a steel mold for Mendel and do injection mold, but understand that your going to have to market the heck out of it to get a customer base.

There never has, and never will be "real" money in RepRap. $450 for 60 hours worth of printing when the machines broke all the time? forget that.
$30 using molds that might get 25-30 sets before they need to be replaced, and a static cost of $5-$10 for the resin? No thanks.

RepRap is a research project, not a real business. There are a few commercial vender's out there making a modest profit, but look at how much work they are putting into it. I have zero interest in working as hard as the Ultimachine, Mendel-Parts, Makergear, Makerbot folks. And if your going to beet these guys your going to have to out sweat them.

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2011 08:37PM by snoopy.

Quote

printed parts are cast parts' competition. Most people would choose printed parts over cast parts. I think you know why.

At he same time, most people prefer industry manufactured electronics over RepRap'd ones. Why?

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

snoopy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> printed parts are cast parts' competition. Most
> people would choose printed parts over cast parts.
> I think you know why.

It depends on the cost difference my friend. Your getting $140 for a set of Prusa parts that are functionally equivalent to a cast set that is going for $50, and will likely be $30ish on average in the next few months.

I talk with drgone a lot and they are selling their kits faster than they can make them over at [metrixcreatespace.com]

As a community we where paying $700 for junk RP parts for Mendel a 16 months ago, even though you could have had them professionally printed for $1200. And your saying that the same group is going to spend $140 on printed parts when they can get functional cast parts for $30-$50?

Interesting times.

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

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Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2011 08:38PM by snoopy.

Quote

As a community we where paying $700 for junk RP parts for Mendel a 16 months ago, even though you could have had them professionally printed for $1200. And your saying that the same group is going to spend $140 on printed parts when they can get functional cast parts for $30-$50?

Matches exactly my experience in the electronics sector. 5 out of 10 people just ask for the price. 4 consider only "complete kits" and perhaps one thinks a bit about quality.

Quote

cons:

requires a higher skill level to make the parts work since the through holes are not created during casting. The user needs to drill holes and do a lot of sanding.

Through holes can be done in casting, of course, but thy require a bit of extra effort.


That said, I think prices should be calculated realistically. $30 seems not enough to compensate for $10 in materials, molds for $50 a piece and an hour of work for each set.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Traumflug Wrote:
>
> That said, I think prices should be calculated
> realistically. $30 seems not enough to compensate
> for $10 in materials, molds for $50 a piece and an
> hour of work for each set.

The molds are $250 not $50. $50 is for the cast parts FROM the mold.

The $30 cast parts I think are a floor because your going to get college students way overusing molds and cheap resen. Those will be the $30 cast parts.

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

Nobody cares how something is made. Only how much it costs, how well they perceive it will perform, and how it LOOKS.

Casting is better than printing on all counts. Injection molding is better than casting on all counts. As quantity increases, it is an obvious progression to move from printing, to casting, to injection molding. The supposed success of casting is proving the quantity of demand is there.

The quantity of kits made by users will eventually decline somewhat, but there will be much better quality kits around, sold by people (insert competition for makerbot here) mass producing them. The low cost and high quality will be more beneficial to the advancement of home fabrication for all, even if you cant use your reprap to make money making other repraps.

There will always be profits to be made from reprap - hence innovation . It's only a matter of how hard you look for them.