Repraper black PLA not sticking

I've tried printing with my bed at 60, 100, 110, and 115. And the extruder at 185, 190, and 200. I've tried ABS juice and clean glass. It's as if it sticks, but is pulled up when the extruder passes near previously printed areas. Anyone have any ideas?

Print on blue tape. I use a lot of RepRaper filament and it always works well on blue tape.

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I'll give that a shot. Do you know of regular masking tape works?

No it is something special that the tape is coated with that allows the PLA to stick to it. It is 3m scotch blue painters tape. I believe there is also a purple one that works to but you would have to search to find out which brand. It also helps a lot to wipe the tape down with a little acetone first. If you wash off the entire coating you will end up with the paper part of the tape becoming part of the print. You may also want to squish down the first layer a little if you are doing a large print to get really good adhesion. You don't really need any heat, just blue tape on cold clean glass.

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NOT a Print Bed Temp Issue @ 60c. It's a Flow Rate Problem !

I had the exact same problem with Black PLA not sticking to a 60c Heated Glass Bed (as it should !). I too tried all variations in print bed temps 50c-100c and filament temps 200c-260c) to no avail, and finally realized I was chasing my tail around with that type of thinking. My normal extruder temp for PLA is 230c-235c.

I like precision, dimensional accurate, and of course nice looking parts that using Blue Painters Tape is unable to yield for the the printed first layer. IMHO use of Blue Painters Tape is for substandard printers that produce substandard first layer results (blue tape is fine for the hobbyist printing toys, but not for engineering prototyping community).
_________

Black PLA , in my experience has totally different properties than the other colors I print with, especially with sticking to the print bed and flow rate issues.

SIMPLY PUT... Black requires a significantly higher Flow Rate to push enough plastic out to meet your desired extrusion spec. and setup.
Hence you need to have enough plastic extruded to form the proper squish (WOT) for the first layer that is vital for the first layer to stick to the bed. If the extruded filament is sparse due to a lack of flow you will a have a perfectly round extruded filament sitting on your print bed and not sticking to it (with no WOT/no squish/no viable contact pattern for the extruded filament to actually stick to the print bed).

SOLUTION :
First make sure your Z-Home Height is set properly and your print bed is level and your print bed temp is 60c.
Then I bump the Flow Rate up about 25% from my standard skeinforge profiles that I use with colors other than black.

I now have beautiful black prints (100 micron layers at +-.05mm accuracy) that stick to the print bed @ 60c, and behave like the other colors now with my modified skeinforge profile for black.

Don't chase your tail around with bad useless information (as I did for weeks trying to print with Black). It's a Flow Rate Issue !

Hope this helps !

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2013 12:23PM by ShawnT98027.

ShawnT98027 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NOT a Print Bed Temp Issue @ 60c. It's a Flow
> Rate Problem !
>
> I had the exact same problem with Black PLA not
> sticking to a 60c Heated Glass Bed (as it should
> !). I too tried all variations in print bed temps
> 50c-100c and filament temps 200c-260c) to no
> avail, and finally realized I was chasing my tail
> around with that type of thinking. My normal
> extruder temp for PLA is 230c-235c.
>
> I like precision, dimensional accurate, and of
> course nice looking parts that using Blue Painters
> Tape is unable to yield for the the printed first
> layer. IMHO use of Blue Painters Tape is for
> substandard printers that produce substandard
> first layer results (blue tape is fine for the
> hobbyist printing toys, but not for engineering
> prototyping community).
> _________
>
> Black PLA , in my experience has totally different
> properties than the other colors I print with,
> especially with sticking to the print bed and flow
> rate issues.
>
> SIMPLY PUT... Black requires a significantly
> higher Flow Rate to push enough plastic out to
> meet your desired extrusion spec. and setup.
> Hence you need to have enough plastic extruded to
> form the proper squish (WOT) for the first layer
> that is vital for the first layer to stick to the
> bed. If the extruded filament is sparse due to a
> lack of flow you will a have a perfectly round
> extruded filament sitting on your print bed and
> not sticking to it (with no WOT/no squish/no
> viable contact pattern for the extruded filament
> to actually stick to the print bed).
>
> SOLUTION :
> First make sure your Z-Home Height is set properly
> and your print bed is level and your print bed
> temp is 60c.
> Then I bump the Flow Rate up about 25% from my
> standard skeinforge profiles that I use with
> colors other than black.
>
> I now have beautiful black prints (100 micron
> layers at +-.05mm accuracy) that stick to the
> print bed @ 60c, and behave like the other colors
> now with my modified skeinforge profile for
> black.
>
> Don't chase your tail around with bad useless
> information (as I did for weeks trying to print
> with Black). It's a Flow Rate Issue !
>
> Hope this helps !

This has to be the worst advise I have ever read.

If you need to increase the flow rate there are serious problems with your printer. We use volumetric extrusion which means we know the volume of plastic going in (((filament radius*filament radius)*3.14159)*length) that means we know the exact volume being extruded (width*height*length) if you increase the flow you have a filament drive issue.

Also how do you figure Blue tape is for hobbyists? Maybe you think having one shiny side on an object is more professional but in reality having the same texture (or close to) on all sides is far more professional. If you really want to talk professional you may want to look at a commercial printer that prints on a Raft that leaves a rough bottom similar to the sides.

@thedingwing If you want your printer to work correctly you will just ignore the above persons post and get the filament to stick correctly and do not screw up your settings as they suggest.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2013 01:34PM by Sublime.

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Hi,

I've been facing the same problem with the first layer and this is what works best for me ... not perfect, because sometimes I have to abort the prints, but most of the time it's coming along nice ... and once first layer finishes well, the printing ends well:

Clean the glass with acetone;
Set you Z-axis home to 0 distance from the glass;
Temps:
Fisrt layer:
Extruder 205ºC, Bed 65ºC

Other layers:
Extruder 185ºC, Bed 50ºC

Aditional 40mm fan pointed to the extruder controled by the slic3r (default cooling parameters)


As I mentioned, I'm still testing, but so far this achieve the best results.

Sublime who are you, resident judge and expert ?... OMG

I have read a lot of your posts... MOST of the time you are on target to fix post problems and help people out. BUT I TOO have seen a lot of your BAD ADVISE ALSO that plainly does not work and runs people around in circles chasing their tails.

As per your comments "do not screw up your settings as they suggest", well how do you "screw up your settings" when you have created a new profile for the black. PLEASE EXPLAIN This !

Regarding the use blue painters tape and ALL the magic stick to the print bed potions out there (used for sub-par machines and setups), NO Professional Engineers use ridiculous methods and magic potions.

Think again, Sublime !

Enough Said !

HA HA HA HA HA.

Maybe you do not believe in Math but all intelligent people do. The E value is the distance to move the filament. It is calculated using the diameter of the filament in the software to move exactly the correct amount of filament to produce the correct path width, height and length. The flow (or extrusion modifier) modifies this value to be more or less to compensate for problems with the machine that should be fixed first. If it works with all other colors then it clearly produces the correct numbers so tweaking it to be 25% more is clearly the wrong way to fix the issue. It may have been a work around for you but it is compensating for a serious flaw somewhere else.

My response was due to your telling him that finding the correct fix was chasing his tail and not to listen to useless advise. It was absolute crap as your advise was the most useless of all of it and you should feel bad for thinking that way. Instead find the problem on your machine and fix it correctly and stop telling people to fudge the number by 25%.

The following is the funniest thing you have written yet becasue not a single professional commercial machine has a heated bed. Some have heated chambers but that is not for bed adhesion except to prevent warping from pulling it off the bed.

Quote

Regarding the use blue painters tape and ALL the magic stick to the print bed potions out there (used for sub-par machines and setups), NO Professional Engineers use ridiculous methods and magic potions.

Now here is the Kicker. He was asking about RepRaper filament in particular which is widely known to not stick well to heated glass and the coating on the Tape works really well with their additives.

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Hello thedingwing,

As you can read by now... everyone [ including Sublime] has there own ideas, you can judge for yourself what actually works for your printer and setup in regards to getting black pla to stick to the bed.

I found that if you follow many blog crowds and hobbyist websites, there is about 75% mis-information out there (i.e. people chasing their tales around reading and or posting to blogs and or hobbyist websites with bad information to help fix an issue).

Often they are many follower type of people who will idolize a few prolific posters elevating them to know-it-all like status/judge status/the god status). You may notice (as I have) many of the posted problems rarely gets solved; seems some people just like to chat, blog and post about the same old problem that has been already solved by other people.

My personal attitude is be a critical thinker (remember not everything you read on the internet/blogs is true or accurate). Have an open mind about posts, then use what makes sense to you and works for you. Don't have some bully blogger tell you another persons methods are the "worst" and then never try a more appropriate solution.

IMHO, using painters tape and magic potions to try to fix a "solvable problem" (that is solvable with a non-mcky-mouse/ridiculous method)", reminds of the "ol' backyard mechanics methods used by the uniformed/inexperienced/or the just plain & stupid". Due you see any Professional 3D Printers ever sold with a optional roll of blue tape and a bottle of magic sticky potion ? NOT !. HA HA HA ! as I have never use the backyard mechanic methods.

For all the people out there like myself, who have had trouble getting black PLA to stick to the print bed. You ultimately will be the judge of what is working for your needs, and not some rampant poster.

Happy Printing in Black !

Oy vey...

I couldn't find any blue tape in my house last night, so I gave regular masking tape a shot anyway. It works great, except it was extreamly hard to get the piece off the bed (although I finally managed it). I'll give blue tape a shot this evening, but I expect it to work much better, given its different coating.

Sublime: thank you, your tip greatly helped in my troubleshooting.

Shawn: thanks for your suggestion but I've tried playing with my flow rate before and it only yields trouble. Math + a bit of fine tuning seems to be the best way to determine the proper flow rate

psilva: lol, the fan helps a lot. My previous fan mount broke and I'm trying to print a new one.

Answer:
Tell your machine to extrude 125mm of filament when you need only 100mm of filament as calculated by the software.

Reasoning behind the answer:
As you can clearly see it is correct and math is just a joke like the earth being round and going around the sun. You can see with your eyes the earth is flat and sun goes around it . Just like you can see that by telling the machine to extrude the wrong amount it fixes the issue.


Now I have in the past told people to calibrate Slic3r 0.7.2b visually because it had a mathematical error that required a human to tune out. But It produced accurate prints once you got past that.

If you find adjusting the flow is the answer it is only a symptom of something like the hobbed bolt slipping because of bad filament, dirt clogging the hotend, Not tight / too tight Idler, driver overheating or inaccurately entered filament diameter. The software is telling the machine to move the filament a certain distance which is equal to the volume of plastic required to build the specific segment of the model. You have already confirmed it turns the hobbed bolt the correct amount with your other filament and have the E steps correct. So if you have to tell it to move more it is clearly not moving it the requested distance with this filament due to some unknown reason. Then by trying to compensate in the software and letting it slip you will get more then needed and over extrusion when it does move the filament the correct amount. That is why it is not the correct way to deal with it and it is clearly a physical issue and should be fixed physically.

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Glad to hear it worked out. If you found another tape that works that is great. You could try increasing the Z-offset so the first layer is not as stuck on your normal tape and maybe it will work better then blue tape.

I know some people are currently using hairspray on glass and swear it works better then anything else.

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I print perfectly in black PLA and didn't need to change anything.

I stumbled on this thread while looking for "adhesion" as I am having problems with my prints sticking down - problems that I thought I had well solved many months ago.

On ABS I used 50mm wide Kapton tape on a glass bed at 105 degrees - which I had found to be noticeably better than 100 degrees or 110 degrees. Having run out of 50mm wide tape I bought a 200mm wide Kapton tape - which is a huge disappointment at 105 degrees - other temperatures yet to be tried.

On PLA, I used blue tape without problems until I did a huge number of thin prints - replacing the blue tape every time. Then the tape stopped sticking well to glass. Cleaning with acetone and iso-propyl alcohol did nothing, but cellulose thinners followed by dish washer liquid and boiling water bought the glass back to life. (I hope) If that fails I will get some hairspray.

I think that the whole field is bleeding edge, your mileage most certainly WILL vary and heated, informative and often enjoyable disagreement will ensue.

Mike

So... I know this is an old post, but there is a lot of information here. I was having lots of issues with this exact problem. I tried combinations of what Shawn and Sublime have said here and no luck. Then I read something Shawn said a little more carefully. Sublime seems to be assuming that the only issue bed adhesion. I agree that bed adhesion can be difficult with Black PLA, but Shawn is saying that bed adhesion is not a major problem with a temp at 60C.

To summarize I adjusted my nozzle temp up from 195C to 210C and my bed temp to 65C and bed adhesion was no longer an issue. I then got my flowrates correct as I couldn't before because nothing would stick. And abracadabra I was in business.

I've done too much tail chasing. However, absorbing everything in these threads seem to always get me where I want to be. Sublime's blue tape suggestion does work well for parts warping and typical adhesion problems, but if absolutely nothing is sticking it is either temperature or flow rate issues. If you have absolutely smooshed your extrusion as much as possible and still have adhesion issues then it must be temperature.

I will have to spam you with the wonders of lemonjuice


steel plague you can avoid all those micromanagement by using lemonjuice. I had the same problems, some parts were sticking, some bigger ones not, and it was becoming furstrating as i didnt get repeatable results.

using lemonjuice is so forgiving that you can lower bed temperature, not having the best leveled bed in the world, and still make the parts stick so well.

Now I dont want to underestimate the qualities of good calibration, but for me it gets tiring all this quest for the perfect calibration, thats why I was so happy with the forgiving properties of the method I describe.

Out of interest, which lemon juice? The reason that I ask is that I have found:-

Blue tape that has very variable from a "Pound shop"
Blue tape that is consistant - made by 3M and about 10 times the price
50mm Kapton tape from Farnell that holds well at 100 to 105 degrees
200mm Kapton tape from Hong Kong that works O.K., but needs at least 115 degrees to hold.
"Extra Hold" hair spray from Boots that seems to have no hold at all.

Also, reports that some nail varnish removers clean Kapton tape well while others act like smearing it with oil.

Mike

I've learned a lot since I started this thread:

• I'll attest to the inconsistency of el-cheapo blue tape. 3M is consistent because it has a "secret" coating that is designed to resist paint. Somehow this coating helps with the adhesion and release of plastic.
• I've only used Hong Kong kapton and it wouldn't hold at anything less that 110.
• I've tried two US brands of hairspray and they both work very well, if dried thoroughly. I usually spray a layer, let it air dry, spray another layer, then let then glass heat up with the bed.
• Some nail polish smears oil because it contains a moisturizer mixed in with the acetone. It usually says on the back of the bottle, but I prefer to use pure acetone from the hardware store.

@leadinglights i firstly used a slice of lemon but I live in germany and its more convenient to just buy ordinary lemon juice in a (usually yellow) plastic bottle, drop it on glass and then spread it with a flat surface until the lemonjuice dries from the heat of the heatbed.

as you print parts, lemonjuice will start sticking less. Thats ok with smaller parts, but if you have a bigger one, then its good practice to pour a bit of water and respread the lemonjuice with a flat surface.

after 10-20-30 parts, I tend to clean the surface and reapply, as the lemon gets caramelized.

Idont thing there is much difference between which brand you use. The bottle I got lasts forever

maybe just sugar with water will also do and the lemonacid has nothing to do with it, but I havent tried.

If that is the bottle that looks like a lemon then is probably what is sold in England as Jif. I will try that.

Thanks,

Mike

Okay, so after a week of consistent nice looking prints I am at a loss. All of a sudden my plastic will not adhere at all, it just wads up on the nozzle. I noticed that right before everything stopped adhering I had to bump up the temperature everyday I started the machine (5 degrees to get what I had the day before).

I have tried lemon juice from a real lemon. 55C bed temp on glass. This just seemed to make a mess of my glass. and plastic wadded up on my nozzle.

I have been printing at 200C hot end 55C bed temp with the blue tape. This was giving me great results until now. I am starting too lose my patience as I got it built 3 months ago and I have only had a week of solid printing. Any help is appreciated.

I've notciced that sometimes my nozzle will extrude nice and thick and then slowly thin down to a thread, or it will extrude inconsistently (like glob then thin, glob then thin). I've checked that my extruder stepper is not slipping or skipping steps. It seems fine... Any help is appreciated. I will try taking video or pictures later.

Hey guys,

figured out what my problem was. I switched back to the plastic that came with the machine that I have o' so little left of. Prints perfectly fine... I guess the plastic I was using went bad. Does anyone know if you can revive filament that has gone bad?

@SteelPlague

different brand have different properties. Even different colors can have different settings in the extruding temperature

I havent heard anyone talking about plastic going bad, only about moisture problems. for them some people heat the filament in the oven at about 60-80C for an hour or so