Now that you have some experience, would you recommend Ormerod?

Hi all,
I'm looking into buying my first RepRap and I was very close to ordering a Mendel90-kit from Nophead before Christmas, but decided to wait a little longer because I liked the looks of Ormerod so much. I have been following this forum closely, including the problems that have surfaced so far (e.g. sagging print head, insufficient print bed support, twisted x-axis etc.). To be fair, I have also seen that the support from RRP seems to be top notch, as expected.
Now that you guys have some experience with the printer, would you recommend getting one as soon as the kits become available from RRP? (by the way, any news on when this might be the case?) Or is a newbie like me better off going for a tried and tested design such as the Mendel90?
Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions!
Eric

EDIT: My post crossed with victors', at least his opinion is clear!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2014 07:57AM by eaj29.

If you are looking for a 3D printer to put together and print things then NO, I would not say Ormerod is suitable, yet.

The basic parts and most of the design is OK and I think that with some mods it will be a good printer but at present there are a LOT
of issues, Mechanics, electronics and software are ALL brand new, and it shows..

All 3 are at best in Beta stage, and the combination of trying to sort out a working printer with all of the unknowns is
not at the level most end users will be able to cope with in my opinion.

If you are interested in a 'cutting edge' set of parts that may one day be a good 3D printer it's not a bad choice
although If I knew what I now do I would have actually bought the parts (Think3d Duet, some steppers, some mechanics
and put it together myself.

I expect that within a few months the Ormerod will have most of the issues sorted but right now it's a development/play platform
not a production 3d printer.

You can get the status by reading the forum but to list the main issues with the printer at present.

Software:
There are some 'intermittant' issues around network/conectivity
that may be software or may be hardware, nobody is sure yet !

The Web interface has minimal functionality (no gcode upload/ no SD file delete)
and the "send gcode" button which would be a way around some of these does not seem to work

Temperature control is 'bang/bang' and on quite a low repetition rate so temperature control of the head/bed
is not very accurate.

XYZ combined moves do not work correctly, (the Z interpolation is incorrect causing missed stepps/incorect speed)
after a very quick look at the source it seems this may be by intent, i.e. XYZ combined moves are not expected to work
unfortunately while 99.9% of all moves on a 3D printer are XY or Z only moves some software does generate XYZ
moves and this gcode currently will not run on the Ormerod (CURA is one example, slic3r with the 'vase' option set also does this)

Printing via USB is very 'jerky' it seems that there is a flow control or similar problem happening, means you have to print from SD to get
good results and the upload to SD is only via USB (very slowly)


Electronic
Lots of people with issues around the PSU/Supply stability.
the Duet is a brand new board, the supplied ATX PSU is a 'cheap as chips' one
and the conections mean that all supply is via a single 12 volt input, running MPU and
12Amp heaters over the same pair of wires, maybe it can be made to work ok at present it's not for a number of people.

Mechanical
The X carriage design with the bearing running on the acrylic is not great and a number of people have had issues

The hot end connection to the X carriage can overheat and 'droop' - this while printing PLA I do not think the current
design is going to be very reliable if you want/need to print ABS,

Bed connection to Y axis is not very sturdy/positive at front

Bed stiffness is not very good (it's 3mm MDF with the bearings to the Y rails near the center and the bed mounted at the corners)


Having said all of that I do think the design has the potential to be good with a number of tweaks, mostly minor but some a bit more substansive it will probaly be a good printer in 6 months.



Chris

I usually avoid version 1 for just these kind of reasons, it always take a while to iron out problems and the only way to that is by accumulated experience. I don't know if RepRapPro had a public beta, but usually the advantage of Open Source is you can get feedback from pioneering volunteers. RepRapPro obviously have limited resources so trying to do all development and testing privately in house is a risk, and unfortunately the customers are exposed to it. I am surprised RS took it on, their products are not usually DIY kits. I guess they saw a chance to get into the trendy 3D printing market.

I was also surprised by the Ormerod design, it looks low cost but that is not reflected in the price. The unsupported arm seems like an obvious weak point. Printrbot tried the "half a printer" approach and I don't think it was very good.

I guess after 6 months when the community have fixed the bugs and design flaws it might be worth another look, although I'd expect a price point nearer £300.

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What is Open Source?
What is Open Source Hardware?
Open Source in a nutshell: the Four Freedoms
CC BY-NC is not an Open Source license

I would say that if you don't want to be on the bleeding edge, give it a month, then check back on this forum to see whether the problems (in particular, software problems) have been fixed. If you are not into soldering, wait until the power distribution issues on the electronics board have been fixed too. I haven't used a 3d printer before, but the prints I am getting on my Ormerod appear to be as good as the better ones pictured on Thingyverse.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2014 09:39AM by dc42.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Hi Eric,

I'm 50/50 on this one.
It might sound strange, but I suppose it depends what type of person you are. IMO you need to have experience in engineering, electronics, assembly work, fairly decent PC skills, a clear workspace and the right tools. Add to that a few days put aside for assembly, commissioning and fine tuning. That's if you don't run into problems. If you're not that type of person then don't get one just yet. It's a kit, and when I say kit - I mean KIT Have a look at the detailed assembly instructions. Unfortunately RS neglected to mention any of this.

The Ormerod is more of an 'instrument' rather that an industrial tool. Maybe a bit like buying a new musical instrument and then expecting to be able to play it straight away. There's quite a big learning curve in building it, setting it up, and in learning to get it to print with good results. The assembly and commissioning instructions are now very good but you'll need to do a bit of research and reading on the subject and software - and then experimenting with your printer.

I had a number of issues, and Ian was fairly quick to send a spare x-axis (thanks). I'm glad I battled on because I've got a working printer that's only going to get better as development continues.

HTH,

Simon

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RS Ormerod No 192

Thank you for your balanced replies! I fully understand that this is still a RepRap kit that will require assembly as well as a good deal of tinkering until it works perfectly - in fact, my reason to buy a kit is exactly because I would like to follow this learning curve. However, I don't want to make life harder than it needs to be, so I would like to buy a full kit (i.e. no self-sourcing) and go for a model that is not too hard to get to work. Giving up out of frustration and having a nonfunctional >700€ toy sitting on the top shelf is a bit too expensive for me!

The reasons I found the Ormerod appealing (compared to the Mendel90) are the slightly more compact size (at least optically - helps with the "WAF"!), the z-distance probe (neat!), the bowden-type extruder with the option to add more colors later and - hopefully - a lower kit price (to be confirmed as soon as RRP starts selling kits). Do you think these advantages are worth going for the less mature model?

Eric


PS: Maybe a weird question, but after looking at some youtube-videos, Mendel90 seems to sound like my old SCSI flatbed scanner on speed while Ormerod is much more quiet. Could that be due to different stepper motor settings?

As to self-sourcing, my parts list so far (not counting tools) is:

1 x RS Ormerod kit
6 x resistors (2 to improve performance of the IR sensor, 2 to fix the manufacturing fault that affected the first 220 Duet boards, 2 to make the Duet board less noisy electrically)
3 x capacitors (to make the Duet board less noisy electrically, and improve the tolerance to mains brownouts)
1 x 623ZZ bearing (to replace the 9mm x-runner bearing to stop the print head sagging)
1 x 59p frameless photo mount (for the clips to hold the bed down properly)
1 x roll white PVC tape (works better than the alu tape)
2 x 40mm cap head screws (I ran out of them, not sure why)
5 x 20mm cap head screws + nuts (to level the bed properly and make room for the new clips)

The cost of the extra parts has been minimal. I'm lucky enough to have a good stock of electronic components, and a shop not too far away that sells a wide range of M3 screws, so getting the extra parts hasn't been inconvenient. The only thing I'm thinking of adding is a 12V 300W power supply @ £21.80 from a UK supplier on eBay, when I try printing with ABS. And, of course, lots more filament!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2014 12:39PM by dc42.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

I've just looked at the Ormerod page on the RS website and noticed they've added this:



Didn't see this when I ordered mine - anyway I'd have still bought it.
Maybe the warning could be a bit more informative.

Simon

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RS Ormerod No 192

I personally enjoyed the challenge of construction (and would enjoy doing it again) - it was an ideal project over the festive break. I was fully aware that it was a kit that had to be built - I only wish I could remember how I knew that. I don't think it said as much on the RS site when I placed the order. Also, given that I was encountering problems at an awkward time for support, the support was astounding. So do I have a work-horse 3D printer after all? Not quite, but I know the remaining issues are all being addressed and I have absolute confidence that Ormorod will be a useful tool in the near future.

Thinking about the initial exclusive distro deal with RS, how and where else could they have launched it to ensure a good number of EE's became their Beta builders

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RS Components Reprap Ormerod No. 481

To add my experience.
I was unaware that I was buying a kit from RS. I expected a bit of assembly, load software and go!
I'm glad I've had the time over xmas to get the printer up and running. TV was rubbish and weather nasty.
When she first moved and started to print I felt like I had really achieved something and watched in amazement as the machine started printing.
I'd not seen a 3D printer working before.
I do feel for the guys who have not got to the print stage, patience and careful following of the instructions is required.
All in all, I appreciate the effort gone into it's design, the service from RepRap and the quality of this forum.
Thoroughly enjoyed the whole experience so far and looking forward to the future mods and lots of 3D printing.
Would I recommend it? I certainly would, but with a warning. (Which was lacking from RS when I made my purchase).
I agree with Radian about letting the Ormerod loose from RS Components rather than Maplin! Genius

Jon 113

After three weeks of work ... absolutely not.
The day after receiving the printer was assembled .... but to date I do not have a stable printer ....
I double checked everything several times.... uselessly! Problems always reappear.
The game is not worth the candle.... I'm thinking that maybe it's better to face facts
I seem to have thrown money!

If you have any doubts then buy a RepRapPro Mendel Mono direct from RepRapPro. Excellent kit, goes together very well, and is a very good printer (I built mine in July, upgraded it to Tricolour in August, and have no regrets!).

Harvey

At this stage of the game, I agree more than 100% with HarveyC! Had I known what I know now, I would never have touched this thing. The Mendel Mono looks like a proven machine.

Dieter

Ormerod #257

I think the main issue is value for money. For £600 (inc. VAT) I was expecting more.
Better materials for bed and replace arcylic with aluminium for example.
I too would probably have not bought this and instead gone for (what I would perceive as) a better design.
I think it is overpriced, £500 maximum inc. VAT would have been fairer.

I don't think it would take much to turn this into a great piece of kit. Again from a mechanical point of view replacing all the acryclic part for metal ones would be a minimum.
I would also have liked a sexier Z axis actuation in place of the wobbly lead screw and nut arrangement (although so far it is proving accurate enough, I don't like the look of it).
Asking the customer to crimp the bed thermistor is also a big mistake as it cause unnecessary fiddling and frustration for very little gain. I personally was able to put up with everything until I got to that point. If you have the crimping tool fine but how many out there do?

Software issue? I have more sympathy for this and can live with it for as long as I can one way or another print. Indeed despite all the problems I have always found a way to print (apart from when my usb socket was broken and my board ethernet was faulty). Now with the new board I can use the Ethernet but the interface is so crap that I just use Pronterface and SD printing.

There are 2 more things that I would add, one annoys me the other one worries me:
Annoying: I print very large parts that can take up to 40hrs to print and use an awfull lot of filament (even with low fill ratios). It won't be long before I run out of filament in the middle of a large print and have to scrap it. Some way of automatically sensing the end of a reel and pausing the print would be most useful;
Worrying: there is not temperature protection in the event of a failure of the board. This has never happened to me but again how long before a printer catches fire during an overnight print because the board hangs?

Having said all this I have printed a farily large number of parts and am generally impressed with the results.

Would I recommend it? I don't know! It is my first printer so can't compare it to anything else. Money is less of an issue for me than value for money. If there was a better printer, bulletproof, easy to assemble or assembled for a £1000 I would buy it. Similarly if the Ormerod was £300-£400 despite all its teething problems, I would buy it too. But at £500+VAT, poor acrylic parts and flimsy bed, sot sure...

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2014 06:45AM by arnaud31.

I'm actually thinking something similar to eaj29.

I'm more leaning to the RRP Mono primarily because I'm thinking I may eventually move to the Tricolour and it seems so far while dual extruders aren't that uncommon, very few RepRap have official support for that from the kit supplier, let alone triple extruders.But I too am unlikely to buy one until RRP starts selling it for various reasons.

It does seem to me that once the firmware and possible design issues are sorted out, the electronics (DUET) for the Ormerod at least are better than the Melzi although that's reflected in the price. Not only in terms of the ethernet and stuff like that but also in terms of power and capability particularly when it comes to multiple extruder support.

One interesting thing from what I've been reading both in this thread and elsewhere is it seems that Ormerod, I guess because of RS being a supplier and perhaps press attention, has attracted a lot of people who haven't been involved in the RepRap community before, and perhaps didn't even know that much about it. Particularly it seems electronics engineers and similar. This is a great thing and will hopefully bring a fresh perspective and great new ideas if they aren't too soured by the problems with the Ormerod.

It doesn't seem however that many people with experience with RepRaps (or hobbyist 3D printers in general) have bought one yet. That does make it a little harder to tell if beyond the teething problems, it's really a bad design or it's just not what people were expecting. (Also waiting to see the RRP price as that will give us a better idea of where it fits price wise and how that affects value for money.)

Quote
Ormerod187
After three weeks of work ... absolutely not.
The day after receiving the printer was assembled .... but to date I do not have a stable printer ....
I double checked everything several times.... uselessly! Problems always reappear.
The game is not worth the candle.... I'm thinking that maybe it's better to face facts
I seem to have thrown money!

with the new firmware begins to be the printer of my dreams!
[forums.reprap.org]

I now have many projects on ...

Dario