Possible cheep laser cutting service?

Hi,

Came across this site promoting min laser cut order for $30. [www.customlasercutting.com] is the link, i have no idea of the total cutting length and material needed so hard to price a darwin print but they are quoting $0.25 per inch cut cost and $4 per square foot for 1/8" ABS.

Does anyone have an idea of the total cut length and material required?

Dan

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2008 10:11PM by Dan.

Our main 5mm panel has a cut length of 1,765" with the sheet being 2.58 square feet, so i make that approx $450.00 in 3/16" Acrylic then there are the extruder parts and the 2 8mm beds + they also say they charge $3 per different item and $1 for duplicates so the 24 parts that make the cartesian bot corners would add $30 and the diagonal tie brackets another $42. If fact there are over 50 different parts on the 5mm main panel.

So probably cheap for small qty 1 off parts and it could be worth asking them to quote the DXF just to see what they say. I also note they don't use Hi-Imapct Acrylic which we now use for all the 5mm thick parts as it is a lot more forgiving when being over tightened.

---

Ian
[www.bitsfrombytes.com]

It's rather amusing to see this side track, quick becoming a superhighway, that Reprap has got onto with laser cut parts. It makes sure that a lot of Darwins get into the field in a hurry, but doesn't advance the notion of viral distribution in the slightest. That's kind of sad, because viral distribution was always for me the most attractive aspect of Reprap.

More and more, I think Reprap is in serious danger of becoming just a cheap 3D, open-source prototyping machine. That's good, mind, but not what I got into this project to achieve.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2008 11:22AM by Forrest Higgs.

I think as soon as we have an extruder (and bot) that can print a complete set of parts in.. let's say one day, you'll find that viral distribution will start its service

'sid

Hi,

Forrest, I think you make an interesting point about your motives for being involved in this project.

No doubt this is listed somewhere else but maybe we can start to compile a list of why people are getting involved in such an early stage project?



For me the appeal was:

- How broad this project is from mechanics to electronics to software.
- The possible social change that may come from people being able to print there own things and not having to rely on retail stores etc.
- Long term to provide a platform for people in poor areas to have access to basic quality of life tools and utensils.

And last but not least "Wealth without money...", still trying to work out how this might get us to that point but its the closest concept I have to date.

Dan

Quote

It makes sure that a lot of Darwins get into the field in a hurry, but doesn't advance the notion of viral distribution in the slightest.

I'll disagree on that one... you can't have viral distribution of repraps without an established manufacturing base. And that, surely, is what the repstraps are supposed to be? In a year's time, I'd like to think that some of these will have made a set of darwin parts. Whether most people do this and share/sell them is another matter; but that's a social problem, not a technological one

I just took a look at how long a professional printer would need to print the parts

stratasys can print up to 60 cm

sid's not at home Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> ... i think it's not enough
> to just speed up the extruder and bot, but we
> should reduce the parts somehow
>
... and confect a design that can replicate much more of itself. Right now, Darwin can basically replicate the connectors that position a structure made of steel rods and the mounting blocks for sensors and stepper motors. That's pretty much it. That's a good start, but we need to be doing LOTS better than that.

true!

If you succeed with the selfmilled steppers it'd be a huuuuuge step forward.

On the other hand I got myself some neodym magnets the other day... boy, they're expensive! I think with those it's almost cheaper to buy a stepper than to buy the magnets to build one myself
Nevermind.

To be honest I don't care much of the pcb milling, at least not because of the pcbs used for the reprap, as I mentioned elsewhere, it's just too easy and less painful (and cheaper) to buy the boards at rrrf.
All eyes on Mendel, maybe "he" can really mill, and maybe he's faster, and has less printed parts... that'd be awsome.

It'd be a huge benefit to mill PE or ABS though, to make some parts in a substractive way,
let's say the extruder itself.. I do think we all have a dremel at home

'sid

Are the printed parts REALLY 5kg! This seems not right...I remember from the before time, in the long long ago, that it was thought a single order of filament from RRRF could print one OR two darwins. I'm I totally off here? Can we get vik to pipe up and tell us the ACTUAL weight of a set of printed darwin parts?

Demented

True?
I have no clue, that's what I had in mind...
oh wait.. could it be that it was 5lbs? ONE Coil from the rrrf store?

I'm getting old, I'm sorry

'sid

Hi sid,

... look at [www.supermagnete.de] if you're searching magnets (or ask me, maybe i'll have some dozends of your desired size )

I had to design and to build some magentic components as motors, magnetic gears, hysteresis-couplings an such, so there's some experience and residues around ...

Viktor

Parts are approx 1.5kg with the laser cut printable parts being even lighter as the design is simpler with regard being able to print it.

---

Ian
[www.bitsfrombytes.com]

Thanks, Ian! Much better than 5kg. Also fits in with the 5lb spools being able to print more than 1 reprap. One reprap is pretty good for $30.33 in ABS. Now if we could only bring the print time down to a 24 hour period...

Demented

1.5kg would be very close to one day (22,x hours nonstop printing at highest speed) so let's say one and a half (who needs sleep?)
when printed on a stratasys machine.

So it IS possible!
I do think they use one of the nordson gunheads for hotmelt

'sid

Ru Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll disagree on that one... you can't have viral
> distribution of repraps without an established
> manufacturing base.............

I agree with Ru on this. In order to get the viral distribution started, first it must be accessible to the average Joe. That means people who don't have the skills, equipment, money or time to make their own RepStrap. The RepStrap system is a good idea, but it needs a lot of refinement. For now, the RepRap network is spread too far and too thin for real viral distribution--but it's getting there.

What would help is a RepStrap designed to be made of extremely common parts, requiring no specialized tools, and that could at least partially be recycled into the RepRap. I know this is being worked on.

Also, sorry to go grossly off thread topic.

---

David

sid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> true!
>
> If you succeed with the selfmilled steppers it'd
> be a huuuuuge step forward.
>
> On the other hand I got myself some neodym magnets
> the other day... boy, they're expensive! I think
> with those it's almost cheaper to buy a stepper
> than to buy the magnets to build one myself
> Nevermind.
>
Yeah, I looked at a German supplier of Chinese-made ring magnets. Those guys are trying, as we used to say in Afrika, to retire on a single sale. Their prices are ridiculous.
>
> To be honest I don't care much of the pcb milling,
> at least not because of the pcbs used for the
> reprap, as I mentioned elsewhere, it's just too
> easy and less painful (and cheaper) to buy the
> boards at rrrf.
>
LOL! Rrrf is certainly cheaper and more convenient as long as you are content to buy canned board designs of your electronics from an outside, quasi-commercial vendor. I'm milling because I want the boards to be replicable and, much more importantly, I want to provide developers a much easier path to being able to change and upgrade their electronics designs. Milling does that for me.
>
> All eyes on Mendel, maybe "he" can really mill,
> and maybe he's faster, and has less printed
> parts... that'd be awsome.
>
Tommelise should be able to do all that. Mind, the Darwin design has the potential, not being realised at the moment at last report, to print a LOT faster than Tommelise. I'm not particularly worried about that, though, because Tommelise is a LOT cheaper to build than Darwin and you can run a bunch of Tommelises off of a single PC, if you buy a USB hub.

Right now Tommelise can print about 25 cm^3/hour or roughly a kg every 40 hours. Your PC doesn't have to be running while it's printing, either, so its pretty energy efficient in that regard and uses significantly less energy itself than Darwin.

Right now, ABS filament costs about $17/kg here in the US. If you ran Tommelise flat out you could print roughly 18 kg of ABS/month. That's about $300. $300 is roughly what Tommelise is going to cost to build with the materials and parts that I'm currently specifying. I ask myself why you'd want to design a "3D printer for the masses" that could print even more plastic than that in a month. If your kid has one are you going to give him $300/month so that he can print things? I don't think so. Are you likely to spend much money on plastic per month. Again, I don't think so. Given that I'm puzzled at the emphasis on making Darwin just as fast a printer as Stratasys commercial machines. I just don't see the point.
>
> It'd be a huge benefit to mill PE or ABS though,
> to make some parts in a substractive way,
> let's say the extruder itself.. I do think we all
> have a dremel at home
>
Well, Nophead showed us the way on that well over a year ago.

Forest, the speed emphasis is because most of us--almost all of us in spirit--are from the "Right Now" generation used to broadband access and convenience stores. I want my parts rather quickly which means faster print speeds. I've sat around waiting for a Stratasys to print...not much fun. I'm too ADD and impatient...

Demented

Quote

Right now Tommelise can print about 25 cm^3/hour or roughly a kg every 40 hours.

Really, that is much faster than Darwin or a Strat.

---

[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

Actually, print speed is not the limiting factor right now, at least for me. I printed my first decent part months ago! At even 1 Darwin a week my lab should be positively overgrown with the infernal devices by now.

I'm finding that personally, I'm having a lot of trouble keeping everything alive long enough to build anything. I thought last week I was on the verge of trying some multiple part builds, but I ran into a number of snags, hardware as well as software related. Right now I'm having a lot of software issues. I've got two computers running four different operating systems, and it's a bit of a merry-go-round as to which piece of software will run on which machine without crashing. Just got bitten by an automatic Java upgrade breaking my only working print software - talk about annoying!

That's how things go out on the edge though - if everything was all sorted out and worked perfectly, it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

Last night I got a few good parts printed again, and today I hope for more, but it'll be a while yet before I get to the point where I'm limited by my print speed.

And at that point I'll likely just print another printer.

Wade

Edit - sorry, getting way off topic here.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2008 08:09AM by Wade.

Forrest Higgs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's rather amusing to see this side track, quick
> becoming a superhighway, that Reprap has got onto
> with laser cut parts. It makes sure that a lot of
> Darwins get into the field in a hurry, but doesn't
> advance the notion of viral distribution in the
> slightest. That's kind of sad, because viral
> distribution was always for me the most attractive
> aspect of Reprap.
>
> More and more, I think Reprap is in serious danger
> of becoming just a cheap 3D, open-source
> prototyping machine. That's good, mind, but not
> what I got into this project to achieve.

Hi, im new to reprap and aim to build a reprap using laser cut parts as it really is the only option open to me (I dont know anyone with a reprap and having the parts made by CNC or SLS is stupidly expensive).

However, I do argee with you regarding the viral distribution and to that end once I have made my reprap I intend to print two sets of classic darwin parts and offer them on the forum for free to the first two people wanting to build their own reprap and who will pay the shipping (seems only fair), providing they agree to do the same once they complete their first reprap.

I do not know if this idea has been discussed before but I believe it could help reprap grow exponentially.

Phill Campbell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I do not know if this idea has been discussed
> before but I believe it could help reprap grow
> exponentially.
>
It's been discussed to death. To my knowledge, though, nobody has actually done it.

I think that the problem is that there are very few Darwins out there that are robust enough yet and whose owners are obsessive enough with sufficient patience to grind out parts sets. Vik has managed to duplicate a Darwin in PVA with his Stratasys printed Darwin and Nophead has printed a Darwin parts set with his Repstrap machine. Most everybody else is either trying to get enough printing experience to do Darwin parts are using their Darwins or Repstraps to print parts either to improve their own machines or, like myself, printing or milling parts for other inventions and projects.

I think you have to forgive us in that regard. Most of us got into Reprap because of the capabilities that such a machine gives us. While I have a strong committment to viral distribution, I also have a tremendous backlog of stuff that I've wanted to build and then there's the new, improved Tommelise 3.0 with much higher self-replication percentages.

Thank God that Ian of BitsandBytes and Vik's Ponoko laser cut designs are out there. I expect that it won't be too long before Zach offers a laser cut parts set, too. I know he's bought a laser cutter.