3D Systems Improves Botmill Quality

During the Botmill acquisition, 3D Systems took on some integration pains and unfortunately some of our customers were effected. We recognize that several users received Botmills far later than the time we quoted, as well often times receiving a product that doesn't represent the quality of 3D Systems. Let me be the first to say we fell short.

I want to thank the Reprap forums personally for bringing several of our shortcomings to light. Had it not been for several members being outspoken about Botmill issues, their corrections might have been overlooked in the integration of Botmill. Fortunately, that wasn't the case.

With that said, over the past months, we have actively taken initiative to correct these issues. We have introduced Peek barrels to make an extremely durable extruder. We have added heated beds standard to all new machines at no extra cost as well as upgraded our extruders from 0.3mm to 0.175. Most importantly, we are proud to announce next day shipping on all Botmill orders effective today. 3D Systems has a commitment of supporting anyone who is looking to build their creation. We are always looking to improve and any way to give our users a better experience let us know.

You have a long way to go, that's for sure. Here are some pointers:

1) Stop re-branding straight RepRap copies under your own name. It just adds to the confusion and does neither you nor RepRap any good at all.

2) Sell a more modern design, like the prusa mendel which is easier to put together and maintain. I am one of those who have shipped upgraded parts to a poor botmill customer who sat with a broken bot and didn't get any replies from you.

3) I've seen assembly pics of your extruder with the peek support missing, even though it came with the kit. No wonder your customers have trouble. Let someone who knows what they're doing make your documentation.

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-Nudel
Blog with RepRap Comic

Hey Nudel,

I don’t anticipate 3D Systems releasing a new RepRap copy. Keep in mind Botmill is a new acquisition for us and the Botmill was NOT designed by us. We are well aware nor do we claim to have created it. We always have respect for this community.

As far as the peek without supports, please send me the pictures so I can correct the issue. Earlier this week, we have updated our documentation as well to prevent the problem you mentioned from happening in the future.

Well, the design of the botmill glider/sells mendel is old and far surpassed by the prusa in both price and quality, so I would encourage you strongly to upgrade it. This is my own personal experience with building and using both designs.

I don't have the link to the picture of the extruder I mentioned, but here is one I believe have the same problem [botmill.com] It's a bit hard too see the entire nozzle due to the tape, but it looks to me like there is a peek support missing there.

Let me just say, I appreciate the effort to fix botmill issues, everyone involved would gain from higher quality and better support.

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-Nudel
Blog with RepRap Comic

This acquisition actually lowered 3D Systems' standing in my view instead of raising Botmill's.

I understand where you are coming from Brnrd. Working on the acquisition myself, I'm well aware of the experience Botmill brought to the table. Our entire team is at work as we speak to show our commitment and improve the experience of personal 3d printers from the time a product is shipped to when it is turned on for its first print and beyond.

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Botmill was NOT designed by us

No it certainly wasn't. It is simply a RepRap Mendel. I can't imagine why you acquired Botmill. It had no IP of its own and the worst reputation for service and quality of any company selling RepRap's.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

nophead Wrote:
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> Botmill was NOT designed by us
>
> No it certainly wasn't. It is simply a RepRap
> Mendel. I can't imagine why you acquired Botmill.
> It had no IP of its own and the worst reputation
> for service and quality of any company selling
> RepRap's.


+1

Wow! I read about a Botmill/3Dsystems deal a while ago and honestly thought it to be a joke or mistake, thinking the BFB deal was being misquoted - I see it actually really happened, how very odd.

If you give us a list of what you are after maybe we can suggest some better investments for.

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[richrap.blogspot.com]

Regarding the acquisition of Botmill, Its because we saw potential. At the time of the purchase, Botmill had a 2 month long back log which needed to be taken care of. The purchase gave 3D Systems an opportunity to give those customers a faster turn around on their purchase and create a team to get creators like yourselves better quality products than what Botmill could have ever provided themselves. Several other RepRap companies (prior to this week ourselves included) take weeks and sometimes months to ship 3D printers. Being able to ship next day empowers people to create their projects a lot sooner.

If that is true and 3DS really bought botmill to help the RepRap community (or DIY community and individuals in general) get higher quality printers faster, the right thing to do would be to stop selling an old sub par design that nobody else uses anymore.

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-Nudel
Blog with RepRap Comic

The products you are asking for are in the works and we certainly wont be selling the Mendel for ever.

3DSbotmill Wrote:
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> Several other RepRap
> companies (prior to this week ourselves included)
> take weeks and sometimes months to ship 3D
> printers. Being able to ship next day empowers
> people to create their projects a lot sooner.

Yes, but you are a big corporation so can do almost anything now to entice customers to buy from you, where those same customers may have bought from an individual or small business and kept them and the community going and investing into all sorts of things.
You have massive resources and could now stifle growth and diversification of the RepRap project, if as you state, you intend to ship a mass market product under the home/DIY/ hobby banner. - If you so wished.

You have the small business and education sector covered with BFB so if Botmill targets the DIY arena with either kits or built machines then I fear

Time will tell, but I do hope 3dSystems can embrace open-source and share things with the community rather than capture it all up in neat little business units.

So the question, will you follow the open-source RepRap/Makerbot route or the Closed source UP! direction I have no problem with either, just interested.

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[richrap.blogspot.com]

Hey Rich,

I do know the answer of which direction we are headed. Unfortunately, I can't share that info at the moment. What I can say though is regardless of what direction we head, the open source community will continue to thrive as our industry grows. As soon as I can get you that info, I will let you know.

Just a side note, it would be nice to know whom we are talking too here. I believe most people rather interact with a human being (don't have to be the real name) instead of a generic name-of-a-company.

Totally fair point. Im Adam. Great to meet you.

In the bottom of the web page for the Glider, this is what it states:

Quote

This product is not returnable. Each machine is custom built for you, after your order is received.

I don't see what is so unique about each build that it cannot be returned if a customer is not satisfied with the quality. They can custom build, test and ship in 24 hrs?

BTW, in case you missed it, there's a fellow down under who needs a lot of help with his Glider according to his post.


Nothing changed here.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2011 10:41AM by brnrd.

Thanks for reminding me to update that page. We actually have inventory at this moment which allows up to ship next day.

Adam

3DS making a mistake after another, and still the reprap community helping... this feels really strange to me.

BfB already broke any possible GPL/licence agreement and now Botmill will try doing the same. Take and never give.
Why the community is so open and helpful with businesses that do not share?

Hey Syncra,

First off, you are absolutely correct about Bits From Bytes opting out of the GPL agreement. At this moment though, I have no information to show that Botmill will go in that direction though. We are staffing up our team so we will be able to share more information about how to better use the Mendel as well as get them to people interested in them faster. Botmill was a small operation when 3D Systems took it over and we are doing what we can in order to give anyone interesting in 3D printing the attention they need.

Syncra,

We would really appreciate if you can elaborate on the GPL agreement when it come to Botmill. It will help us make sure we follow the protocols. As far as I am aware, Botmill has not broken any protocols.

Rajeev

DuexVis,

Valid point. I see that Adam has introduced himself. I am Rajeev from 3D Systems/Botmill.

Rajeev

Its good to see Botmill improving things.

I'd agree that thus far Botmill has just sold stock RepRap designs with no modifications as far as I know. As such I don't see that they have anything to release under the GPL

Rhys

P.S. You may want to alter your blog and forum post. I presume you've upgraded from 3mm to 1.75mm filament, not 0.3 to 0.175

RichRap,

We started Next Day Shipping so that we can provide better service. Botmill service was lacking during the last 6 months and the top issue was - "not shipping on time." We are trying to address that with this service.

Also, in this "open-source" world, individuals and users are waiting for 4-5 weeks from almost all vendors. We know that we can do better and hence we are trying.

Rajeev

That being said, in the future people should consider that if something isn't released under the GPL this does not equal a patent. The GPL only covers the CAD files. As I understand it, for personal use we are perfectly entitled to redraw components on parts that aren't released, and release them providing there is no patent. Companies thinking of closing things off would perhaps consider this,release the files anyway and at least have the support of the community.

Hi Rajeev,

That's all good news for your customers, and I can see why you want to get into this booming lower-end of the market and if you do everything right you can undoubtedly be a dominant supplier. I'm all for business and if service is poor then someone else will take both the customers and market.

Just to clarify, as I'm not sure what your point is - the typical lead-times of 4-5 weeks you quote from suppliers is not a problem of "open-source" unless you are saying that you will not follow the open source route as you believe this is the cause of the 4-5 weeks delays, that does not seem to follow, maybe you can comment on what you were getting at?

I'm sure 'our' honest feedback on this forum about the reality of dealing with Botmill helped you assess their 'value' and also potential.
Botmill's products fed from 'us' and gave very little back, maybe you can help address that balance.

I just hope and would like to see 3D systems work with the 3D printer community on technology and software development in an open way. I'm sure you could find a business way to do both without the need to develop closed source solution just for your products.

Do keep us updated.

Rich.

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[richrap.blogspot.com]

Rajeev at all,

I never stated that Botmill is into any infringement, yet. However, I stated that BfB definitely is, and their behaviour has been really sad for the open source community. Open source means that you can take and use as long as you put back some knowledge in case you create new IPs. Then it gets more complicated regarding commercial operations and depends on the type of licence.

Anyway, being BfB part of 3D Systems from several months, I am very worried that the same "steal and non-disclose" policy will apply in the near future to Botmill. I repeat myself, I am worried this might happen, but I am hopeful it will not.

This community is wonderful and should be helped evolving, not business challenged (this expression could be misunderstood, it does not mean that business should not happen, but only that business, like everybody, should follow rules and support the community).

I will be happy to help you on this if I feel the intent is right.
Syncra

rhysjones Wrote:
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> P.S. You may want to alter your blog and forum
> post. I presume you've upgraded from 3mm to 1.75mm
> filament, not 0.3 to 0.175

Yes that confused me. I took it to mean the nozzle aperture went from 0.3mm to 0.175. I am not sure I would count filament changing from 3mm to 1.75mm an upgrade. It is only an advantage if you switch to a smaller / lighter extruder like Adrian's. If you stick with the same heavy motor what do you gain? The filament just gets more expensive.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

I find the main benefit is it makes the whole thing much easier to tune, presumably as the forces are so much lower and the extra "gearing", but when tuned properly there isn't much benefit at all.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2011 09:40AM by rhysjones.

We are finding that the forces required to extrude the filament are less and also, the system is more forgiving to proper tuning. This increases the success rate of builds and the system need not be tuned perfectly everytime (although, if it is, it is great! ;-) )