What is the hot end with the smallest orifice?

.28mm Hot end tip Found this but how good is .28 and is there a smaller orifice for higher resolution printing?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2012 07:38PM by Dark Alchemist.

0.5mm is pretty much the standard nozzle size. 0.35.. is also common. That site goes down to 0.28mm but only for 1.75mm hot ends, I'd imagine they could drill a 3mm hotend to 0.28mm if you asked them to.

Well, I was hoping to see a very very fine one but the best I could find is the .28 I linked. I guess I see why people are chomping at the bit, errr hot end, for 0.1mm orifice because they don't exist and as I said less than 0.28 I couldn't find anything on Google when I was searching.

edit: Dunno why I kept saying .5 when I had found .28mm so I corrected both posts.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2012 07:39PM by Dark Alchemist.

The problem is that not only does a smaller orifice increase build time for the same feed rate, it also requires exponentially higher extrusion pressures. 0.1mm orifices are impractical. Basically anything smaller than 0.25mm is not useful except for printing very tiny objects.

A 0.35mm hot end will get you reasonably high resolution while having reasonable build times and extrusion pressures.

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NewPerfection Wrote:
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> The problem is that not only does a smaller
> orifice increase build time for the same feed
> rate, it also requires exponentially higher
> extrusion pressures. 0.1mm orifices are
> impractical. Basically anything smaller than
> 0.25mm is not useful except for printing very tiny
> objects.
>
> A 0.35mm hot end will get you reasonably high
> resolution while having reasonable build times and
> extrusion pressures.
The pressure is easily handled but is the build time simply because we need to slow down to allow the plastic to harden before it runs or is there another reason?

[shop.seemecnc.com]

Or even:
[shop.seemecnc.com]

If you fancy trying to drill one yourself.

But ultra-fine nozzles aren't necessary for high quality prints.For instance:
[www.hive76.org]

Done on an ultimaker, which uses a 0.4mm nozzle.

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The pressure is easily handled but is the build
> time simply because we need to slow down to allow
> the plastic to harden before it runs or is there
> another reason?

The build time is because you are extruding a smaller cross section of filament, so for the same total part volume the build time is increased dramatically. For the same feed rate: cross sectional area of 0.5mm orifice: 0.196mm^2 area. For 0.1mm orifice: 0.00785mm^2 area. That is, the 0.1mm orifice has 1/25 the area of a 0.5mm orifice.

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posted while I replying so will stick in here:NewPerfection Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The pressure is easily handled but is the build
> > time simply because we need to slow down to
> allow
> > the plastic to harden before it runs or is
> there
> > another reason?
>
> The build time is because you are extruding a
> smaller cross section of filament, so for the same
> total part volume the build time is increased
> dramatically. For the same feed rate: cross
> sectional area of 0.5mm orifice: 0.196mm^2 area.
> For 0.1mm orifice: 0.00785mm^2 area. That is, the
> 0.1mm orifice has 1/25 the area of a 0.5mm
> orifice.
Ahhhh, I completely over looked that fact.

This reminds me way back 20 years ago and people telling me that high rez prints can be done with a 9 pin printer so no need for a 24 pin. heheheh.

Anyway should I go with 0.9 degree steppers to help if I am using an ultra fine nozzle?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2012 07:52PM by Dark Alchemist.

There's no reason you can't go with a super small nozzle diameter, just be aware of the drawbacks.

0.9 degree steppers may make a difference, though I'm not sure how noticeable it would be. If you can get them for a similar price, then go for it.

---

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NewPerfection Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's no reason you can't go with a super small
> nozzle diameter, just be aware of the drawbacks.
>
> 0.9 degree steppers may make a difference, though
> I'm not sure how noticeable it would be. If you
> can get them for a similar price, then go for it.

That I can but for my cnc everyone told me to stay away from them and go for 1.8 degree which always boggled my mind since we do want precision out of these things.

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That I can but for my cnc everyone told me to stay
> away from them and go for 1.8 degree which always
> boggled my mind since we do want precision out of
> these things.

The only difference is that 0.9 steppers require twice as many step pulses for the same movement as 1.8 steppers, assuming that you are using the same microstepping settings. As long as your hardware can keep up, that is not an issue. If your hardware cannot keep up, you can reduce the microstep setting; e.g. 8x instead of 16x, and will still result in better precision.

---

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Yep, that is what I thought for the CNC and a Reprap. Now what is funny is I have seen a .45 degrees popping up more as of late like this Nema 23 [www.linengineering.com]

edit: Someone asked me on one of the other threads I posted on why I want Nema 23 and I forgot to mention [www.linengineering.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2012 08:25PM by Dark Alchemist.

I see they finally got these puppies in [www.linengineering.com]

Honestly I think for a 3d printer/cnc these are a must.

Sounds like a great idea! But at $15 each they double the price of each motor, and leaves me only 2mm of shaft with a front mount damper. Maybe a stepper with dual shafts and a rear mount damper? That would be nice.

But does a reprap really *need* these? We're not running these motors at high speeds...

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- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sounds like a great idea! But at $15 each they
> double the price of each motor, and leaves me only
> 2mm of shaft with a front mount damper. Maybe a
> stepper with dual shafts and a rear mount damper?
> That would be nice.
>
> But does a reprap really *need* these? We're not
> running these motors at high speeds...
Well, a lot people are wanting to pick up the pace and this is an option now. The thing is that any amount of shake is picked up by the head and when we start to shrink the orifice size that shake that wasn't noticeable at .5mm suddenly becomes a mess at .1mm plus with a damper you can go faster to make up for the smaller sizes. I know on the CNC stuff we want it done fast and accurately (materials and time are not cheap) so people are going over to home made dampers put on the back side of the motor but they will never be as good as those on the front.

I can't find the price of these (you said 15 but I couldn't find it) so I wrote the company and they wrote me back asking my location so I gave it to them where I am awaiting their prices.

The big negative that I see is not of the clearance you mentioned (on a new design it can be taken in account) but look at that stepper with the damper the device that is slapped on to the shaft now has to have a real tolerance so no half assing/bubble gum engineering will work. That is the biggest drawback but, as I said, I want to go as fast or faster at .1mm as people are now at .5 and without a damper I don't see how without a big glob of goo on my bed.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2012 11:15PM by Dark Alchemist.

CNC and reprap are theoretically the same principle, but different in may ways. Speed is not always desirable as layers must bond to ensure that a part is strong. Print too fast and the part will be structurally compromised.

Newark.com has three of them (if their site would ever come back up). And lin engineering makes the rear dampers - newark has them too.

Actually, this is a rear damper...



Those aren't M3 mounting holes on the face.

And maybe there will be enough clearance for a front mounted damper and a pulley - the spec sheet they have up for the NEMA 17 is actually for the NEMA 23 damper.

We'll have to wait and see!

If I had to lay odds, I'd say that the moving masses of the X and Y axes impart at least an order of magnitude more error than the steppers ever will. After all the moving masses of these two axes are a significant proportion of the total weight of the machine, especially for threaded rod machines.

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

I bet you are right but every little bit helps but now to figure out how to help the X/Y.

One thing I will say, going back to my first thread, is that if this is to ever leave our hands and enter into Jane and Joe sixpack hands and take off it has to be faster. In this day and age of going green to see someone having to leave motors, computers, etc... running all night to complete one project isn't going to sit well with them either. So, making this go faster would solve the problem of capturing those two but how to go faster and have a good looking part?

To be honest most of the parts I see RepRap produce look rather inferior but only because of the way it works via layering. Seeing those layers makes it look cheap and I was hoping to get thinner layers by going down to .1mm but we are all used to injection molded plastic pieces that look perfect.

The dampers affect low speed and mid band resonance, they wont have a significant effect at high speed because the steps become smooth simply because they are too fast for the load and rotor inertia to respond.

Step resonance is much reduced by using micro stepping and isn't what prevents going very fast. It is load mass, frame rigidity, belt flex, etc.

You don't need a smaller nozzle for 0.1mm layers, people already print thinner than that but you do need to go fast or be very patient.

Smaller nozzles give you better horizontal resolution. The pressure increases as the inverse fourth power of the nozzle size and linear on speed, so to reduce the size and go faster eventually hits the limit on the grip of the filament feed, which is limited by the shear strength of the filament.

The power required to move a mass from A to B faster is also a fourth power rule.

So in summary everything gets much harder very quickly as you speed up.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

You can get a J-Head with 0.25mm nozzle if you ask reifsnyderb.

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--
-Nudel
Blog with RepRap Comic

I was not amused by the response I received from the manufacturer but here is the quote they gave me:

Price at Qty 1-9pc for NEMA 17 and 23 dampers would be:

NEMA 17 Damper - $25.00/ea
NEMA 23 Damper - $34.00/ea

nophead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The dampers affect low speed and mid band
> resonance, they wont have a significant effect at
> high speed because the steps become smooth simply
> because they are too fast for the load and rotor
> inertia to respond.
>
> Step resonance is much reduced by using micro
> stepping and isn't what prevents going very fast.
> It is load mass, frame rigidity, belt flex, etc.
>
> You don't need a smaller nozzle for 0.1mm layers,
> people already print thinner than that but you do
> need to go fast or be very patient.
>
> Smaller nozzles give you better horizontal
> resolution. The pressure increases as the inverse
> fourth power of the nozzle size and linear on
> speed, so to reduce the size and go faster
> eventually hits the limit on the grip of the
> filament feed, which is limited by the shear
> strength of the filament.
>
> The power required to move a mass from A to B
> faster is also a fourth power rule.
>
> So in summary everything gets much harder very
> quickly as you speed up.

What all of this tells me is that this technology isn't really able to go to a mass market scale. I don't know of many people who aren't the gadgeteers/hackers/hobbyists/engineering types that will sit for 16, or more, hours to wait for their print to be done nor will they wish to fiddle, or muck about, with it. Nope, this needs to go to the next level or that paradigm shift isn't going to really happen due to a lack of millions of units out there.

> What all of this tells me is that this technology
> isn't really able to go to a mass market scale. I
> don't know of many people who aren't the
> gadgeteers/hackers/hobbyists/engineering types
> that will sit for 16, or more, hours to wait for
> their print to be done nor will they wish to
> fiddle, or muck about, with it. Nope, this needs
> to go to the next level or that paradigm shift
> isn't going to really happen due to a lack of
> millions of units out there.

Yes were a long ways from mass market IMO or very close depending on how you think about it.
What makes it so difficult to not have to have people mess with it, is the fact there are so many combinations in parts around. Even when the parts are the same, the build quality and often component quality is all over the place.
No Slicer or firmware could hope to auto calibrate or ship with reasonable settings for all users.
I doubt anyone on these forums really cares.

It's easy to fix if you want to make a commercial printer, sell them assembled with known components and software, it's why you are starting to see printers like the UP and the Cube, it's the first step, reasonably priced 3D printers with good out of the box quality and minimal messing around. If they are successful more will follow.
Now print speed is more a question of the technology and physics right now, at some point you can't feed the filament fast enough without breaking it. FWIW most commercial 3D printers are MUCH slower than what people run here.

I just see the commercial printers being used to control but regardless what most around here cares or not I have a much greater drive for the world. My wish is that the world simply implodes and people get control of their own destinies. Reprap could be that but not with the slipshod way it is being done.

Look at Linux and when it was in the hands of we hackers we didn't care (I didn't nor anyone I knew) if others had it because it made us special and elite to be the only ones. Pfffft, to that I want RepRap, or 3d printing in general, to take off and take over. Make corporations tremble before us but we can't get there, to that point in our future, if we don't care. Going back to the Linux example only when they removed the CLI as the primary way of dealing with the OS and made it more like Windows where it was heavily GUI based and made the end user less a part of the system has it started to take a grasp (I am a CLI no GUI dinosaur type but even I find both of those to come in handy for many things today) whereas I loved having to be a cog in the wheels of the Linux machine/system but most don't.

So, size, speed, beauty of the finished product, and total cost (including the electrical bill at the end of the month) is what will drive this product into the sort of ideals Adrian Bowyer seems to have, and mine for the future paradigm shifts I believe this world must have, or leave it for the elitists which means it was a failure overall.

Quote
Polygonhell
FWIW most commercial 3D printers are MUCH slower than what people run here.

The ones that use the powder and the laser to create the items are way faster and make parts that look like they were injected molded and neither of those two things have we achieved with our "squirting" technology.

I figure it is like chiseling out knife and fork with a stone chisel and one that is crafted with lathes and band saws with sand paper. One will cost way more but will look good enough to put in you china cabinet while the other one you leave out back for the guests (lol).

40k vs 500 dollars but I sense that 40k will come way down but the dust it uses is OMG expensive.

The results from powder printers tend not to be nearly as strong as FDM prints. They are more accurate, but that's comparing apples to oranges as they are very different technologies.

Commercial FDM printers are not exactly cheap machines. They produce acceptable output for many applications, and RepRap is very close to reproducing that quality. A well-tuned RepRap can even produce better parts, minus support structures.

---

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Well, it was funny but I saw a BBC program where they made an entire bike (except the innertube and rubber wheel) from the powder and while it was rickety it was the first item like that. Those are the things that will change the world for the better when you can pop in a plan and 2 hours later have a full sized bike ready to assemble and ride. So, in less than 3 hours you just made yourself a bike, or whatever, that is just as good as what you get now.

See those are the things I am talking about that I so look forward to seeing within my lifetime but there is a snag and that is none of this is very durable. Most durability is with Polymers but how do you print such a beast and make it a solid object or at least make it as structurally sound/strong as what we currently have?

Dark Alchemist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The pressure is easily handled but is the build
> time simply because we need to slow down to allow
> the plastic to harden before it runs or is there
> another reason?

No, the pressure is not "easily handled". It's produced by pushing the filament into the extruder and the filament can take only so much force before disintegrating. If you have ever tried pushing the same filament, by hand, through a 0.50mm nozzle and then through a 0.35mm nozzle, you readily feel how enormous difference there is even between those two. I shudder to think what it would take to push the plastic through a 0.10mm nozzle...

ttsalo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dark Alchemist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The pressure is easily handled but is the build
> > time simply because we need to slow down to
> allow
> > the plastic to harden before it runs or is
> there
> > another reason?
>
> No, the pressure is not "easily handled". It's
> produced by pushing the filament into the extruder
> and the filament can take only so much force
> before disintegrating. If you have ever tried
> pushing the same filament, by hand, through a
> 0.50mm nozzle and then through a 0.35mm nozzle,
> you readily feel how enormous difference there is
> even between those two. I shudder to think what it
> would take to push the plastic through a 0.10mm
> nozzle...
Seen it done before but not with a filament.

You should look at this: [forums.reprap.org]

Airbrush nozzles are available quite cheap.

YES, YES, I was thinking about airbrush nozzle as they have them long and slender and tiny orifices but I wondered if they could withstand the heat since an airbrush doesn't get hot.