SmoothieBoard Users

Hi all,
I recently bought my first 3D printer (Zonestar P802MA) and am loving it, however the limitations of my board on it (Melzi board) are having me looking to building a 2nd printer. Things I am listing as essential for my next build are
1) dual (or triple) extrusion
2) network capability
3) 32 bit board

This got me looking / leaning towards the smoothieboard so I thought I would ask those that have one what their thoughts / opinion of this board are. Is it worth spending the extra money on getting one?

The printer I am looking at building will be fully enclosed build platform (with viewing windows) with electronics and power supply housed in an outer cooled compartment, running dual Bowden extuders.

Any input would be great.

Thanks in advance!
Jason

I'll say it before Dc42 does, but consider the Duet as well. Better network features, and I personally find it easier to configure.
I've had the odd software issue with both the smoothie and the duet, but that's kind of to be expected for a small open source software driven project with little money devoted to testing and such. For hardware features alone it's worth the difference (IMHO).

I used to use Arduino/RAMPS and then put a SmoothieBoard in my printer. The change is a HUGE improvement. I am especially happy about not having to deal with the flakey Arduino IDE and hunt through multiple config files to find variables that I need to change. Do you have specific questions about it?

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

Thanks for the feedback so far. I'll look in to the duet as well. At this stage just trying to decide on which board to get. I am open to suggestions as long as the board meets the criteria I mentioned at the start. Network is a big piece so the better the network capability the more suitable the board will be. 2 extruders is a minimum but 3 would be great.

Mostly I'm trying to find how users that currently have a SmoothieBoard find it to use and if they wish in hindsight they selected a different board as these boards are not on the cheap side so I would rather buy once and get a reliable and suitable board.

As for board specific questions how to you find it to configure, specifically in setting up and tuning it for running dual or triple extractors (for this I would be running one or two colors and a 'build' filament).

Neither board will run three extruders without some add on, the smoothie 5x and Duet .85 will run two. The Duet has a separate expansion board, while you have to "roll your own" solution with the smoothie as far as adding another stepper driver.
I do wish I chose the Duet over the Smoothie, I find that the software side of the Duet is far more responsive to user feedback than the Smoothie.

What will you be using networking for? Smoothie has it, but to me it seems sort of pointless. A 3D printer requires that you change or verify adequate filament, prep the bed (clean, level, zero, etc.), and remove the last print manually. Since you have to be at the machine to do those things, what's the point of networking the machine? While you're at the machine doing those things, why not just plug in an SD card and start the print?

Networking sounds very up-to-the-minute-next-big-thing-IoT, but what does it really do for a 3D printer besides create another point of potential failure? I'm sure it will impress friends and family to show them that you can remotely start a print using your phone (assuming you're already prepped the machine for the print), but after you've done that once or twice, will it still be an improvement?

We have a CubePro Trio at the makerspace that has wireless networking (oooh, aaahhh!). Here's the typical workflow: 1) go to machine, turn it on, remove any prints that are on it, clean the bed, apply glue. 2) go to the computer that has CubePro's slicer, find out that the filament cartridge doesn't have enough filament, 3) go to the printer and change the cartridge, 4) go back to the computer and send the data to the printer to start the print. 5) Go back to the printer and make sure it's working properly.

When 3D printers get as reliable and as fully automatic as laser printers, adding networking will be great. Until then, meh...

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

File upload without removing the sd card and resetting the machine. Web interface better than pronterface and works over Ethernet.

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Bundybear1981
Mostly I'm trying to find how users that currently have a SmoothieBoard find it to use and if they wish in hindsight they selected a different board as these boards are not on the cheap side so I would rather buy once and get a reliable and suitable board.

I bought a Smoothie and find I should have saved my money. While the hardware is nice, like Koko76 said, the software is not as nice as other solutions. The one big thing about the software that surprised me was the lack of soft end stops that even Marlin has. This cost me a glass plate when I accidentally moved the Z axis in the wrong direction. Smoothie happily tried moving the hot end 20mm through the bed, shattering the plate and bending the heater.

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the_digital_dentist
What will you be using networking for? Smoothie has it, but to me it seems sort of pointless.

The network on the Smoothie is pretty pointless it seems. Not so with the Duet. Or even if you add an Octoprint server to a board without a network connection. While as you mentioned, all the maintenance and prep, the networking can provide help. You don't have tiny SD cards to lose. You can queue up more prints while a print it running. It allows remote monitoring and can allow for notifications when prints are done or there is a problem. It frees the computer from the printer during a print job. It can provide better feedback as to the progress of the print.

The description you gave about the workflow of the CubePro sound more like an issue with the printer, not the network.

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Koko76
File upload without removing the sd card and resetting the machine. Web interface better than pronterface and works over Ethernet.

Using pronterface relies on USB which is very flaky, especially on Windows computers. It also requires a computer, which can also be very unreliable, especially if you run windows. Reliable printing is best accomplished using the machine in stand-alone mode by adding an LCD/encoder/SD card reader. If you print from external SD card, you don't have to reset the machine when you insert and remove the card.

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ElmoC
I bought a Smoothie and find I should have saved my money. While the hardware is nice, like Koko76 said, the software is not as nice as other solutions. The one big thing about the software that surprised me was the lack of soft end stops that even Marlin has. This cost me a glass plate when I accidentally moved the Z axis in the wrong direction. Smoothie happily tried moving the hot end 20mm through the bed, shattering the plate and bending the heater.

I had that happen once when setting up the machine. User errors can cause problems, even with Marlin. It sounds more like a good reason to avoid glass print beds. Glass is unnecessary if you use a flat aluminum bed.

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ElmoC
The network on the Smoothie is pretty pointless it seems. Not so with the Duet. Or even if you add an Octoprint server to a board without a network connection. While as you mentioned, all the maintenance and prep, the networking can provide help. You don't have tiny SD cards to lose. You can queue up more prints while a print it running. It allows remote monitoring and can allow for notifications when prints are done or there is a problem. It frees the computer from the printer during a print job. It can provide better feedback as to the progress of the print.

The description you gave about the workflow of the CubePro sound more like an issue with the printer, not the network.

How does networking help change filament, prep the bed, or remove the last print?
What value is queuing more prints while a print is running if you have to go to the machine to remove the last print before then next one can start (and maybe change the filament spool)?
Remote monitoring can be accomplished with a cheap web cam.
An LCD panel with SD card reader and encoder frees the machine from the computer. Octoprint/Octopi is just another host computer using the USB interface to the printer.
You got me on losing SD cards - some people can't keep track of their keys, phone, or wallet, either. There's no hope for such people. They'll probably lose the piece of paper where they keep all their passwords written, too, then what good will networking their printer be?

Monitoring print progress? Hmmm. The slicer gave me an estimate of the time it would take to print. My watch is all I need to monitor print progress and completion. I can see one valuable use for networking a printer, as long as you also add a camera. You can remotely shut down the machine if a print fails. For many unreliable printers that's going to be especially valuable. I don't generally have such problems, because instead of pursuing useless features like networking, I put effort and money into making the printer reliable.

The workflow issue with the CubePro isn't a printer problem, it's a pointless networking problem. If it weren't networked, there'd be no back and forth running around. Any printer with networking that doesn't automatically change filament, remove the last print, or prep the bed surface for the next print, is going to require similar operating procedures. How could it not?

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

I'm not advocating pronterface, what I'm advocating is different and better. Perhaps if you had experience with what you are talking about you might have a different opinion. I bought and used both boards. Have you, or are you just speculating?

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the_digital_dentist
What will you be using networking for? Smoothie has it, but to me it seems sort of pointless. A 3D printer requires that you change or verify adequate filament, prep the bed (clean, level, zero, etc.), and remove the last print manually. Since you have to be at the machine to do those things, what's the point of networking the machine? While you're at the machine doing those things, why not just plug in an SD card and start the print?

The SD card method is one I don't like, it requires moving the card between the PC and printer. The USB method requires you have the PC within 2 mts so the cable can reach. With network you can have the printer in another room to your PC (I have a heavily networked house) so for this reason network is preferred for me. It allows the PC to be more distance from printer (and fumes of melting ABS)

... an interesting (barely known) solution are WLAN-SD-cards

I've bought two FlashAir cards for another project -- you have to change the config-file in a hidden folder on the card, so it will initialize in read/write mode ... per default they are in read-only mode, meant for downloading images from digicams with the smart-phone ...

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Viktor
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Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]

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the_digital_dentist
How does networking help change filament, prep the bed, or remove the last print?

It doesn't. No one said it does. My comment about the filament was in regards to your printer that apparently hides the filament from the user so you have to check the status either through a control panel or a computer. If no control panel is present, then the printer has to be connected to the computer somehow. How it is connected is irrelevant and this is a printer issue, not a network one. So let's just leave that out.

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the_digital_dentist
What value is queuing more prints while a print is running if you have to go to the machine to remove the last print before then next one can start (and maybe change the filament spool)?

For you, queuing may not be of much value. To others, it could mean a lot. Just because you don't feel a need for it doesn't make it worthless.

And again, removing the last print and prepping the bed has to be done at the printer regardless of the printer's connectivity. Another issue that can be left out of the discussion.

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the_digital_dentist
Remote monitoring can be accomplished with a cheap web cam.

Visual monitoring of a print job can be done with a cam. But only visual. If you want to know how much of the print job is left or other information, a connection to a computer or direct network connection will be needed.

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the_digital_dentist
An LCD panel with SD card reader and encoder frees the machine from the computer. Octoprint/Octopi is just another host computer using the USB interface to the printer.

I agree the LCD panel and SD card reader is a valuable addition to a printer. You can run the printer free standing with one. But that is not the only way people use a printer. It might be the way you do it, but that doesn't make it the best or only way. Just your way.

For other, such as Bundybear1981, they want network connections for the way they use the printer. I use a network connection to my printers to work with them through OctoPrint. Yes, OctoPrint is just another host computer using the USB interface, but it is at the printer and dedicated to just spooling print jobs to the printer. I can still put print jobs on an SD card and print them through OctoPrint if I wanted to.

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the_digital_dentist
Monitoring print progress? Hmmm. The slicer gave me an estimate of the time it would take to print. My watch is all I need to monitor print progress and completion.

Your watch isn't monitoring the progress. It is just telling when it should be done so you can go look and see that it failed. I don't know what slicer you use, but the ones I have also give the estimate. And you know how often they are even close to the actual time? *NEVER* And again, timing when a job should be finished is not monitoring.

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the_digital_dentist
The workflow issue with the CubePro isn't a printer problem, it's a pointless networking problem. If it weren't networked, there'd be no back and forth running around. Any printer with networking that doesn't automatically change filament, remove the last print, or prep the bed surface for the next print, is going to require similar operating procedures. How could it not?

The workflow problem with the CubePro is a printer problem. They made it a printer problem by not allowing you to see the status of the filament unless you check it on a computer. And again, the remove/prep stuff happens at the printer regardless of how the printer is connected, or if it is even connected, to a computer. Changing filament will always require some sort of back and forth action. How far you have to go to do that is dependent on how you can communicate with the printer. You still have to tell the printer to heat the hot end so you can get the old filament out and install the new filament. And then tell the printer to turn off the hot end when you are done.

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Koko76
I'm not advocating pronterface, what I'm advocating is different and better. Perhaps if you had experience with what you are talking about you might have a different opinion. I bought and used both boards. Have you, or are you just speculating?

Not sure which boards you are referring to, but I have a SmoothieBoard. I have reluctantly used pronterface on my own printer when waiting for the LCD/SD card interface to arrive and with printers at the makerspace that don't have LCD/SD card readers. I have not purchased and used a Raspberry Pi board to run octopi because it does almost nothing that I want.

ElmoC, removing the last print, changing or weighing filament remaining, prepping the bed are all things you can't do via a network and are all things that must be done before every print. This IS the whole point of the networking discussion. You must go to the machine for each and every print, so plugging in an SD card when you are at the machine is a more reliable and much less complicated way of communicating with the machine.

Any time you add additional connections or computers to the printer you decrease reliability. Printing from SD cards is the most reliable way to print because it does not depend on reliable connections to computers or the computers themselves. Anyone who has ever had a print fail because of a USB comms problem or a computer problem has seen it demonstrated. Those who are capable realize what is happening and learn from it.

Maybe there are people who don't care about reliability. Networking and host computers are perfect for them.

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

I print directly from an SD card all the time, and monitor it via the web interface. There is no "Host computer" in this scenario. Looks like and works similar to pronterface, but specifically without the disadvantages you keep mentioning. Upload files to the card via the web interface without swapping around cards and micro sd adapters. Turn off the computer, printer keeps going. Network goes down, printer keeps going. Start a second session on another machine to check in for a second, printer keeps going. Again if you had experience with the firmware and board I mentioned you might know this.
You keep railing against a web interface, making all sorts of misguided claims about it decreasing reliability and other nonsense, yet you don't even seem to understand how the feature is implemented. If you don't have experience with the duet and RepRapFirmware why are you commenting on it's reliability?
Both are decent boards, I've bought and used both in the same hardware. I personally find not only the networking features, but specific motion control implementations in the duet hardware and RRF to be superior to the smoothie board and smoothieware. Your hardware may be different, and have different needs.

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the_digital_dentist
ElmoC, removing the last print, changing or weighing filament remaining, prepping the bed are all things you can't do via a network and are all things that must be done before every print. This IS the whole point of the networking discussion.

NO ONE ever said a network can remove and prep a printer. Yes, you can use your sneaker-net to carry the card from your computer to the printer and insert in the printer when you are there to prep for the next print. I can also send the file to my printer via a network connection before going to the printer to prep for the next print. How the file gets to the printer, network, usb, SD card, is irrelevant. You are going to have to go the printer. And it has *NOTHING* to do with the network discussion.

Let me change a couple of things to your statement I quoted...

"the_digital_dentist, removing the last print, changing or weighing filament remaining, prepping the bed are all things you can't do via a SD Card and are all things that must be done before every print."

Can you see how this prep is not relevant?

You brought up a workflow of what sounds like a printer with a very poorly designed UI and have equated that to being a network problem when it is not. If the printer had a control panel to check the information on, then a connection to the computer wouldn't be needed and could all be handled at the printer. But because they didn't put a control panel on or give you the ability to check it at the printer, you have to use the network. That is not the network's fault. It is an issue with how the printer implemented it's UI.

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the_digital_dentist
Anyone who has ever had a print fail because of a USB comms problem or a computer problem has seen it demonstrated.

Just as anyone who have had an SD card fail when printing has seen. There are lots of points of failure in this whole printing process. Just because you use an SD card doesn't mean you have eliminated all of them or that you have more reliability. Network communication using a wired TCP/IP connection is extremely reliable. A properly configured USB connection is also reliable. Most of the problems I see with a USB connection is from poor cables or poor USB implementation on the printer end.

I have nothing more to say on the subject of networking.

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Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

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the_digital_dentist
I have nothing more to say on the subject of networking.

You didn't have anything to say in the first place except made up nonsense. Or did you have an explanation of how my networked printer printing from an sd card is unreliable?

Hey there.

Arthur from the Smoothie project here.

I wanted to chime in about Ethernet :

Smoothie's web interface is very minimalistic at the moment. Some users have made improved versions ( which you can use just by dropping them onto the SD card ), but they never gained much popularity.

There is *a lot* going on on this side of Smoothie right now though : 

1. I'm working on Octofab, which turns interfaces like Octoprint and DC42's Duet web interface, into replacements for the Smoothie web interface, to be used on the SD card. The Octoprint part is close to working, the other still needs some work.
2. There is a lot of work currently going on with Chilipeppr and Laserweb ( both of which also do 3D printing ) to get them to be Smoothie-compatible.

I expect very soon there will be many options, all very neat. Getting close

Cheers.

Great to see you posting here Arthur.

I'm a diehard Smoothie fan. I have two Smoothies and a Duet (I also have several RAMPS, Rambo, and a couple of deceased Printrboards - I have OCD issues when it comes to electronics). The only downside for me is the upload speed via the web interface. This can be solved using USB and mounting the SD card and sharing it over the network. Of course that opens up USB issues. That can be resolved with a script, however. I have a script that disables the USB port (the 5V relay is necessary for this)

It sounds like Smoothie v2 will address a lot of these issues.

As for the board and firmware, I found the firmware easier to set up than the firmware for the Duet. That said, the Duet web UI is damn good.

My first Smoothieboard was a 5X kit that I had to solder myself. I'm no expert at soldering. After assembling that board, I'm still no expert. Which says a lot to the tolerance of the board itself. No matter how hard I've tried to set the thing on fire, it keeps kicking. I especially like the "open" nature of the board. All pinouts are assignable in the firmware. For instance, when I melted the connector for the heated bed, I was able to reassign to a different pinout. Looking at the board it's easy to see there are a lot of opportunities for additional accessories (multiple PWM and always-on fans, led lights, etc).

I would like to see an expansion board similar to the Duet's board.

Also, for the RepRap board admins, I think it would be a good idea to have a Smoothie forum as a compliment to the Duet forum in Electronics.

Just a suggestion

@RickRap : Thanks for the kind words.

Smoothie's SD card driver is being worked on right now ( adding DMA and FIFO buffers ) and it should make it significantly faster both via USB and Ethernet. Test results should come soon, merging a bit later.

About forums, I've just grepped Reprap IRC logs ( 6 years of it ) to try to see what boards are talked about most ( I'd like to do the same for forums but it's not as easy ) :

$ cat .xchat2/xchatlogs/FreeNode-\#reprap.log | grep -i rambo |  wc -l 
5325
$ cat .xchat2/xchatlogs/FreeNode-\#reprap.log | grep -i ramps |  wc -l
43886
$ cat .xchat2/xchatlogs/FreeNode-\#reprap.log | grep -i smoothie |  wc -l
14818
$ cat .xchat2/xchatlogs/FreeNode-\#reprap.log | grep -i melzi |  wc -l
1919
$ cat .xchat2/xchatlogs/FreeNode-\#reprap.log | grep -i duet |  wc -l
474
$ cat .xchat2/xchatlogs/FreeNode-\#reprap.log | grep -i gen6 |  wc -l
3006
$ cat .xchat2/xchatlogs/FreeNode-\#reprap.log | grep -i printrbot |  wc -l
7709

And if you just look at the most recent times ( 6 years ago Smoothie did not even exist ) you get :

$ tail -n 1000000 .xchat2/xchatlogs/FreeNode-\#reprap.log | grep -i ramps |  wc -l
4210
$ tail -n 1000000 .xchat2/xchatlogs/FreeNode-\#reprap.log | grep -i smoothie |  wc -l
3144

And that's not even taking into account the fact that Smoothie has it's own IRC channel, which has a lot of traffic ( ~100 users, largest for any electronics or firmware by a long shot ), which artificially lowers this number significantly.

Sounds to me like Smoothie is popular enough in the reprap world to deserve it's own forum section

Sorry for the noise, I like grepping logs

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2016 04:24PM by arthurwolf.

Lots of good info here. At this time I'm leaning towards going a duet simply due to it currently being better on network and the expansion board. Arthur, is there any plans to do something like the expansion board with smoothie and when do you expect to roll out the updates you discussed?

Hey.

About expansion boards.

Smoothieboard 5XC supports dual extrusion out of the box. But it also has a spare thermistor input, and a spare mosfet ( which allows you to control a third hotend ).
Meaning that on a 5XC, the only thing you are missing to control a third extruder, is a stepper motor driver. And wiring one of those is trivial ( and cheap ), see documentation : [smoothieware.org]
For example, this is very cheap and allows you to use any pololu-type driver as an external driver : [reprap.org]

I'd expect it's a similar amount of trouble to wire an external driver to a 5XC, as it is to add an expansion board to a Duet, but I might be wrong. Duet is going to get you up to 6 extruders for a similar price though. But that matters only if you plan to go there.

About web interface updates, because this is work done by the community, there is no way to know for sure. But it's going *extremely* fast right now, and I expect the web interface will change significantly in the coming weeks.

Cheers.

Pronterface can also use a virtual tty to Smoothie over the network.

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Koko76
I'm not advocating pronterface, what I'm advocating is different and better. Perhaps if you had experience with what you are talking about you might have a different opinion. I bought and used both boards. Have you, or are you just speculating?