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Why no affordable 32bit electronics

Posted by rmlrn 
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 04:10AM
Good point epicepee, I need to see what firmware it runs, and if that has been optimised for deltas. I'm pretty sure that reprap firmware doesn't support a simple 4 line LCD panel, which is sad. I don't want to spend megabucks on a fully graphical PanelDue when I really don't want it, and alteady have a 4 line LCD that works very well for me.
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 05:01AM
I just wanted to point out that a *genuine* Smoothieboard is in the same price range as a *genuine* RAMPS or Rambo.

Burnt-your-house-down not-to-spec RAMPS counterfeits from China, sold something like $20 nowadays, completely skew everybody's perception of what it actually costs to produce, test and distribute these boards.

I think Duet is probably, right now, the least expensive board that still gets produced with sufficient quality. So go for that if you really care that much about the price difference, and the Duet's features match what you want.

If you sell a board for cheaper than that, you are stealing from your customers in one way or another ... maybe producing crap boards, maybe not testing them, etc ...

And that's not even taking into account the fact that when you buy some boards, you are actually helping develop the next version, writing documentation, help users, etc ...
While for some other boards, you are just paying some random guy's salary and that's it.

That difference has to be worth something.
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 06:46AM
You make some good points, but I just wanted to point out that Chinese ramps are more like $4 USD these days, and that's with free shipping: [www.aliexpress.com]

That doesn't just skew perception, it completely blows traditional business models out of the window, as has been discussed many times previously. You're right that supporting innovative manufacturers is a valuable thing to do, and I hope that enough people are willing to do it to keep them in business. Failing that, reprap will either evolve (return?) to hobbyists who are willing to create designs for free, backed-up by the somewhat random and unpredictable manufacturing of Chinese companies that decide to manufacture successful designs (for some definition of successful), or (I forgot the 'or'!) cease to exist in a recognizable form.

Quote
arthurwolf
I just wanted to point out that a *genuine* Smoothieboard is in the same price range as a *genuine* RAMPS or Rambo.

Burnt-your-house-down not-to-spec RAMPS counterfeits from China, sold something like $20 nowadays, completely skew everybody's perception of what it actually costs to produce, test and distribute these boards.

I think Duet is probably, right now, the least expensive board that still gets produced with sufficient quality. So go for that if you really care that much about the price difference, and the Duet's features match what you want.

If you sell a board for cheaper than that, you are stealing from your customers in one way or another ... maybe producing crap boards, maybe not testing them, etc ...

And that's not even taking into account the fact that when you buy some boards, you are actually helping develop the next version, writing documentation, help users, etc ...
While for some other boards, you are just paying some random guy's salary and that's it.

That difference has to be worth something.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2016 06:49AM by JamesK.
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 07:12AM
Of all the cheap RAMPS out there those Red board are the most common, that will burn your house down!!!. most fires I've seen been with those red ones attached with cheap FETS luckily folks been around to put it out
Then they have other issues with them unable to alter micro stepping as they got traces which already jumps the stepper drivers.

JINX tip of the DAY : stay the hell away from the those RED RAMPS!!.
"some time we can be just too cheap"

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2016 07:12AM by jinx.
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 07:14AM
Aren't they all red?
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 07:16AM
I've been having a scout around ebay the only other ramps I can find that isnt red is this one ramps 1.57 bundle is there such a thing as a "ramps 1.57"???
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 07:24AM
Quote
DJ
Aren't they all red?
nope green
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 07:33AM
Well it's worth bearing in mind, but I have 3 red ones, two work and one has some issues - the stepper jumpers problem and a bad voltage regulator.

I have a spare one - also red, which looks well made and feels solid, the stepper jumpers are not shorted I checked them with the multimeter I got that one from wedo3dprinting ramps 1.4 board havent tried it yet but Im going to swap it into one of my printers - the one with the bad board later today.
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 07:35AM
Quote
jinx
Of all the cheap RAMPS out there those Red board are the most common, that will burn your house down!!!.

I've got two of them. The parts on mine are good, including 35V capacitors for the stepper drivers and no problems with overheating mosfets. Quality control was a bit weak with a dry joint on one that needed re-soldering. That tends to be what I'd expect for low priced electronics. Heat on ramps is mostly a design issue with bringing too much current through the pcb, and is easily avoided.
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 07:46AM
like most thing at budget it can be a hit and miss, to be honest am not really gonna talk about it here, sure we all have are own stories to tell, but out of respect for others I want avoid digressing from the main subject of 32bit controllers. .
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 07:47AM
I also think a lot of people have problems with poor skills i.e. not securing the high current inputs and outputs properly, leads coming off, or only conducting through a small area, bad mosfets (easily changed). No adequate cooling etc...
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 10:03AM
Quote
jinx
Of all the cheap RAMPS out there those Red board are the most common, that will burn your house down!!!. most fires I've seen been with those red ones attached with cheap FETS luckily folks been around to put it out

"most fires", really? I'm sorry but my FUD-o-meter is on fire..... tongue sticking out smiley

How much larger is the RAMPS board user group then all other boards combined(!) user group ? So how much bigger is the chance that when problems arise there is a RAMPS board involved?. Your not by facts supported claim/remark is NOT helping at all but will cause damage to the 3d printer community.

Quote
jinx
but out of respect for others I want avoid digressing from the main subject of 32bit controllers. .
.....

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2016 10:04AM by [email protected]
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 11:18AM
Thats the ultimaker board in that 1.57 bundle,
I found a blue ramps

[www.ebay.co.uk]
VDX
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 11:34AM
... the first RAMPS were blue - mostly meant to represent the "Arduino-universe" winking smiley

The 'cloners' changed the colours by will/occasion, so now you can find green, red, black, white and even yellow/gold ...

Here is one of the first prototypes without print, sitting on one of the first ArduinoMega's:




Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Attachments:
open | download - ArduinoMega+RAMPS.jpg (71 KB)
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 12:01PM
Quote
[email protected]
Quote
jinx
Of all the cheap RAMPS out there those Red board are the most common, that will burn your house down!!!. most fires I've seen been with those red ones attached with cheap FETS luckily folks been around to put it out
"most fires", really? I'm sorry but my FUD-o-meter is on fire..... tongue sticking out smiley

I'd agree, except for the following : 

* As soon as those cheap RAMPS, two years ago, started appearing, the number of reports of dead/burnt boards in the community sky-rocketed ( ask anybody who is helping on IRC on a regular basis ). This clearly shows the difference between produced-to-specs RAMPS, and these very cheap RAMPS.
* Those boards have clearly identified problems ( PCB not to spec, catastrophic production quality, counterfeit components, under-speced components, no testing ), that produced-to-specs RAMPS do not have. What would be surprising is if they *didn't* burn ...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2016 12:02PM by arthurwolf.
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 01:13PM
Quote
Fran
Your not by facts supported claim/remark is NOT helping at all but will cause damage to the 3d printer community.



although that's the result of 24V with underrated caps on board, it's one waiting to catch the inexperienced out. glad you noticed fran. link to post

YEA no facts at all!!! there's more if you look not all are red but most are. you may want to check your meter
"next time you want to single me out with your BS meter start your own post and we test that meter of yours"

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2016 01:24PM by jinx.
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 01:54PM
The Green Board listing shows this pic with a little extra, but its not mentioned in the listing...
is this for the 24v use, replacement, or showing they are paying attention to details?

Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 05:30PM
Quote
jinx
YEA no facts at all!!! there's more if you look not all are red but most are. you may want to check your meter
LOL you are not even trying to reply to the most important part of my post "...chance...large user base"

Read this thread [forums.reprap.org] $80.000 laser engraver burning. Should we now not start using them?
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 05:50PM
Quote
arthurwolf
* As soon as those cheap RAMPS, two years ago, started appearing, the number of reports of dead/burnt boards in the community sky-rocketed ( ask anybody who is helping on IRC on a regular basis ). This clearly shows the difference between produced-to-specs RAMPS, and these very cheap RAMPS.
But is that because of the cheap board being build so bad they start burn down your house (your words & jinx) when you even dare to look at them or because those very cheap board lowered the barrier for a significant larger group of people to start buying/building a 3D printer! And with that group came maybe the not so "experienced" users making more mistakes? Example [forums.reprap.org]

Don't make false assumptions and present your opinion as an truth...

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2016 06:27PM by [email protected]
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 06:31PM
Back on topic:
A link to the RAMPS-FD history [groups.google.com] and a link to the RAMPS-FD v2 board [oshpark.com]

No idea if someone has tried to build that one...

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2016 06:40PM by [email protected]
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 06:43PM
Quote
fran

LOL you are not even trying to reply to the most important part of my post "...chance...large user base"
really didn't think it was that important from a build point , one builder,one printer, one controller 'if I had ten controller then maybe your reasoning would make more sense to me. Yea there loads upon loads of ramps out there, but they ain't all trade seconds on the cheap either."

As for the comment about burning the house down its a standing joke in reprap self builds. we all know the risk is there, doesn't help using an iffy board when you know nothing, as for the benefits of the modern 32 boards human error is reduced, feature of that is setting the driver current in software reducing the risk of burnt/shorted drivers. better fuses and so on, save setting which to restart printing if power goes out ,, nice feature of the overlord.

NOW Fran show me where I said 'go out and buy a smoothie board or any other board for that matter. I dont even have an 32 bit what do have is 6 RAMPS all with varies prices and quality but my first was a RAMPS 1.3 soldered by myself with parts I knew was sound with drivers from a local source. other board £5 came with a DOA FET on D8, I knew the risk and had a ramp to fall back on, "easy enough to swap outputs in marlin". two cheap drivers burned up in front me eyes pots failed ". another ebay auction £21 arduino, ramps 1.4 drivers made in Malaysia best one in the collection well made heat sink on the bed FET. decent power connectors white header sockets for the stepper, £21 bargain " day after new year no one was looking" next £7 bare ramps shield well made although had a dry joint and a short easy sorted IF YOU GOT AN IRON around.

what am trying to say is once you got a board then take the risk in the budget section. but if you gonna tell the newbie to go out and buy cheap then you should let 'em know the gamble to which they may end up paying twice.




Quote
fran
But is that because of the cheap board being build so bad they start burn down your house (your words & jinx) when you even dare to look at them or because those very cheap board lowered the barrier for a significant larger group of people to start buying/building a 3D printer! And with that group came maybe the not so "experienced" users making more mistakes?

theirs nothing wrong in saving that little more for a controller after all its their first printer maybe their only printer . which you need a good reliable electronics and where ever possible sourced locally, for if it is DOA chances are you get replacement next day rather than 2-4 weeks. all you advocating is risk and gamble,
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 07:02PM
Quote
jinx
As for the comment about burning the house down its a standing joke
Happy to read that you meant it as an joke thumbs up
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 07, 2016 07:11PM
Quote
jinx
as for the benefits of the modern 32 boards human error is reduced, feature of that is setting the driver current in software reducing the risk of burnt/shorted drivers. better fuses and so on, save setting which to restart printing if power goes out ,, nice feature of the overlord.

These are not all features exclusive to 32-bit boards. These are features of the board design, not the processor. The 32-bit boards have the advantage of being designed after the RAMPS has gone through several iterations and various needs being discovered that RAMPS couldn't support. But those features can be present on 8-bit boards if you design one to support it. The Printrboard software settings for the driver current, better fuses and so on, but is an 8-bit board.
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 08, 2016 02:40AM
Quote
Elmo

These are not all features exclusive to 32-bit boards. These are features of the board design, not the processor. The 32-bit boards have the advantage of being designed after the RAMPS has gone through several iterations and various needs being discovered that RAMPS couldn't support. But those features can be present on 8-bit boards if you design one to support it. The Printrboard software settings for the driver current, better fuses and so on, but is an 8-bit board.

I agree elmo and when I was writing about the fuses I was thinking Geeetech GT2560 " there still life in the 8 bit yet". dreammaker overlord got mega a 2560 at its heart. to be Honest most of that sentence comes from a desire to see those features become standard in the new boards.
one of my main concern I have with 32 bit boards design are the drivers being soldered to the boards locking me in to a driver I can never change and should I burn a driver I got the prospect of either buying a reflow oven or scraping the whole board, Personally they should have 6 driver on any modern board just to keep up with hotend designs like the diamond. aint so keen having to use of extension boards at even more cost, when designers of these boards should have anticipated, especial with reprap community teetering on the edge of multi, nozzle/colour printing becoming the norm for the last 2 years.
seems to me theirs folks in this community that's hell bent on holding back advancements in reprap just to sell supplies of outdated boards " why use flint in the digital age" apart from costdrinking smiley

Quote
fran
Happy to read that you meant it as an joke
humour aside you keep on encouraging folks to go cheap, maybe you want to mention having an CO2 extinguisher at hand "for the just in case moment your house starts burning down!!!hot smiley


for those cheap ass jinx moment.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2016 02:52AM by jinx.
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 08, 2016 03:46AM
Yeah Co2 fire extinguisher -check. Smoke detector based power cutoff device fire safety device - check.
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 08, 2016 03:56AM
Quote
jinx
Quote
Elmo
These are not all features exclusive to 32-bit boards. These are features of the board design, not the processor. The 32-bit boards have the advantage of being designed after the RAMPS has gone through several iterations and various needs being discovered that RAMPS couldn't support. But those features can be present on 8-bit boards if you design one to support it. The Printrboard software settings for the driver current, better fuses and so on, but is an 8-bit board.

I agree elmo and when I was writing about the fuses I was thinking Geeetech GT2560 " there still life in the 8 bit yet". dreammaker overlord got mega a 2560 at its heart. to be Honest most of that sentence comes from a desire to see those features become standard in the new boards.

The 8-bit boards other than RAMPS don't cost any less than similar 32-bit boards. It's cheaper to manufacture a 32-bit board than an 8-bit board with a similar specification. The processor costs less, and you don't need the extra USB-to-serial converter. Against that, you need to provide driver circuits for the bed heater and hot end mosfets, but they cost very little.

The real difference in price is where boards are manufactured. Boards that are manufactured in Europe or the USA and are thoroughly tested, such as the Duet 0.8.5 and the Smoothieboard, cost a lot more than boards that are manufactured in China and in some cases appear to be hardly tested at all.

Quote
jinx
one of my main concern I have with 32 bit boards design are the drivers being soldered to the boards locking me in to a driver I can never change and should I burn a driver I got the prospect of either buying a reflow oven or scraping the whole board, Personally they should have 6 driver on any modern board just to keep up with hotend designs like the diamond. aint so keen having to use of extension boards at even more cost, when designers of these boards should have anticipated, especial with reprap community teetering on the edge of multi, nozzle/colour printing becoming the norm for the last 2 years.

Driver chips that are soldered to a well designed board are vastly more reliable than plug-in drivers. Ask T3P3, who have experience with selling both. But you can still damage a driver by connecting and disconnecting motors with power applied.

As for putting 6 or more drivers on the board, one of the constraints is space. There needs to be room on the board to have most of the connectors around the edge (to avoid the horrible tangle you get with RAMPS and allow air to flow around the board) and enough PCB area to cool all the drivers adequately (in contrast to most plug-in drivers, which have totally inadequate cooling). People already complain that Duet and Smoothieboard are larger (although thinner) than Arduino/RAMPS.

btw someone has made a Duet expansion board that accepts plug-in drivers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2016 03:58AM by dc42.



Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 08, 2016 04:01AM
Quote
dc42
Boards that are manufactured in Europe or the USA and are thoroughly tested, such as the Duet 0.8.5 and the Smoothieboard, cost a lot more than boards that are manufactured in China and in some cases appear to be hardly tested at all.

Just a note that Smoothieboard is in fact manufactured in China ( but the manufacturer we use is very far from the cheapest ones you can find, and was carefully selected ).

All boards are fully tested functionally in Europe though ( we turn the motors, heat heaters, read temperatures, access the web interface etc ... to make sure nothing is broken ).

We are currently looking into getting the boards manufactured locally. Not for a question of quality, but because it'd make it much easier to never be out-of-stock.
VDX
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 08, 2016 04:29AM
... the RAMPS may have a pretty big user base, but actually I've changed to the RADDS board (32Bit-ArduinoDue with 6+2 or +3 RAPS128 exchangeable microstepping drivers with upt to 2.2A current) and built 8 machines with/around it ... and my 3 RAMPS are collecting dust in the spare-box eye rolling smiley

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2016 04:30AM by VDX.


Viktor
--------
Aufruf zum Projekt "Müll-freie Meere" - [reprap.org] -- Deutsche Facebook-Gruppe - [www.facebook.com]

Call for the project "garbage-free seas" - [reprap.org]
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 08, 2016 04:35AM
Quote
DC42
As for putting 6 or more drivers on the board, one of the constraints is space. There needs to be room on the board to have most of the connectors around the edge (to avoid the horrible tangle you get with RAMPS and allow air to flow around the board)
all good points but still I want 6 drivers though "cant believe folks would be put off by a little extra board space eye rolling smiley

Quote
DJ
Smoke detector based power cutoff device
like what did there am wondering about having an esp wifi and webcam into the mix for a remote shut off.
Re: Why no affordable 32bit electronics
March 08, 2016 06:06AM
@dc42

can you point me to the github of your low cost 32 bit board . I cant seem to find it.. maybe it will be good to prototype it.

thanks
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