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Sanguish development

Posted by bryanandaimee 
Sanguish development
May 15, 2013 11:33PM
Sanguish is in Beta! The initial 20 boards from the board houses have passed the test. I just completed a print that lasted over an hour and had no issues. That was with 2 amp steppers with no cooling or heat sink on the TB6560 drivers. Heated bed support worked fine but I will be adding a jumper to the heated bed power traces to keep the board cooler.

For those interested, the boards will come assembled and tested for $40 plus shipping (That includes drivers!). I'm assembling the beta boards to hopefully cut down on problems for the initial beta testers. PM me if you are interested. I should be able to ship the first 5 or so within a few days of your order. The others have to wait on a few parts.

Sanguish Wiki Page
Re: Sanguish development
May 16, 2013 10:30AM
Wow $40. That's impressive.


Note: The enable line is inverted from the way it works on the Pololu drivers so this MUST be changed in firmware before powering on the 12V to the drivers, otherwise the smoke will escape.

I'm confused by this statement. If the enable line wasn't inverted, this just means the all the drivers will be inadvertently powered on as soon as I connect the 12V.

Why would this release smoke? Why couldn't these drivers handle being powered on at the same time?
Re: Sanguish development
May 16, 2013 12:02PM
It's just that I'm selling them at about cost to speed the beta test process along. I imagine that a kit would go for $50 to $60 unassembled once the board is out of beta given that the parts cost is around $35.

Sorry about the confusing statement. I meant that the enable pin's logic was inverted from the way it works on the Pololu's. The Pololu drivers are enabled when the enable line is pulled low. These drivers are enabled when the enable line is pulled high. If you leave the firmware set for Pololu drivers the enable line will be pulled high on startup before the motor power is on. With this board smoke emission may not be such an issue because the relay enforces some of the required power on sequencing. Specifically the driver logic supply (5V) will always be on before the relay can be turned on to supply 12V. You can look at the Gen7T topic in Gen N + 1 for a more thorough discussion. I should probably edit that statement. It was true for Gen7T and I copied much of the Sanguish page from that page, but I don't think there's much risk with the Sanguish board.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2013 12:15PM by bryanandaimee.
Re: Sanguish development
May 27, 2013 10:39AM
where can i find the sanguish eagle files?
Re: Sanguish development
May 28, 2013 04:18PM
files are GEDA format. I'll put them up on the wiki when I get home this evening unless I forget (againsmiling smiley

Re: Sanguish development
May 29, 2013 01:57AM
Hi Bryan,

I got the Beta board to talk to Repetier-Host through a USB-Serial cable. Had a little problem since (a) the SP jumper needed to be installed to provide 5V to the processor and (b) the firmware was set up for 76800 baud. I imagine (a) will resolve itself once the board is installed in the printer with a real power supply, but I'm a bit stumped on (b). How do I set the Arduino environment to communicate with the board at 76800 baud? Is there a board file, or some other configuration that's required so the serial communication works at 76800?

I tried to verify your firmware and immediate got the following error: /pins.h:1473:6: error: #error Oops! Make sure you have 'Your MCU/Bootloader' selected from the 'Tools -> Boards' menu. It's not clear which board to select, or how to work around this.

Re: Sanguish development
May 29, 2013 06:42AM

got the following error: /pins.h:1473:6: error: #error Oops!

I'd remove that line for new boards.

Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
Re: Sanguish development
May 29, 2013 12:16PM
a: Yes, the processor is powered either by the serial cable (when the jumper is set) or the 7805 regulator when 12V is applied to the motor power terminals. So you would generally set the serial power jumper when programming unless 12V is on. It is probably a bad idea to have both serial and 12V->7805 power sources connected to 5V at the same time.

B. Arduino baud rate and repetier baud rate are two different things. For Repetier or other reprap software the baud rate is 76800 as you said.

The bootloader on the chip is the Gen7 bootloader so for the arduino environment you just need to get the Gen7 support files and copy them to the arduino hardware folder as instructed in Gen7 arduino support Then you just pick the Gen7 1284P w 16Mhz for your board and it should work.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2013 12:20PM by bryanandaimee.
Re: Sanguish development
May 29, 2013 01:11PM
Incidentally, if you are using Repetier software, you can adjust many of the calibration values without reflashing the firmware. Just go to the EEProm settings and change them from within Repetier software.
Re: Sanguish development
June 10, 2013 07:34AM
I assume since its beta I am allowed so comments on the board? (:
So my BETA arrived in South Africa last week. Spent the weekend playing a bit:

Initial inpression:

The good:
The top along the stepper drivers looks good. Nicely chosen placement of components.

I like that you did not solder in the TBs and use female headers. Should one pop ever, easy to replace. Looks secure, wiggled a bit while running no issues. Stayed cool as well.

Having the 5v regulator facing outward makes easy to heatsink if not using 12v

Reset is easy to reach

Yay PTC fuses grinning smiley at last

The bad:
PCB layout. I will admit to having OCD but some of the tracks need a lot a cleanup before next batch. I will be glad to help, something I quite like to do.

Copper Pours: learn about copper pours using polygons. Has several advantages: current handling, cosmetic, heat dissipation . Again glad to help with that. Really that one thing that bumps up look of board 100 fold without costing a cent extra. In fact makes it easier for board house. Not sure how well gEDA supports it. More of an Eagle and Kicad fan myself. gEDA just never felt like it comes to the table on all I need.

Silkscreen: the board has nice use of space allowing use of more silkscreen. See attached example. Rather add your own layer in and write and draw nice labels on that layer. Espesially showing pos and neg on power in, names of screw terminals (motor pwr, heater pwr, hotend, bed, etc) and espcially for jumpers. Even with the cheapsheet I still have no idea how to set microstepping etc I think mine attached is a good example of what to do (:

Use Grid. The endstop connectors are not lined up. OCD again but really makes board more sellable.

Autoreset. The removable cap is not nice. Caused some issues with autoreset not working. Rather solder in cap, but have a jumper?

There is space for MCP2200 Usb to serial. Look at gen7 1.5. Ftdi converters are a bloody pain.

Mounting holes: really missing

Power LEDs i think you mentioned on wiki you added these already

Multipart pads. Easy to place terminals and a 4w minifit on same place allowing me to choose power input. I solder in what i need. I like using ATX PSUs - Sanguino is good example of what I mean here.

Space out lower left corner a bit better. Clumped with the heatsink there. I think its possible to get PTCs on top too standing upright.

Next on to testing functionality (:

Got it running in almost no time (spent more time sorting out a FTDI converter)

It runs quite well, in fact on par with the Pololu based electronics. Tested on desk with a spare stepper, etc.


Heatbed: Any issues? Have not hooked on up yet. I see its been wire and solder reinforced. Need to ensure my wires between PSU and Heater Power In is beefy enough

Microstepping. I Prefer calculating steps over trial and error. Can you elaborate on the setup?

Torque jumpers: What's the real purpose here? Current Limiting?

Current limit. Is there no way to use a pot instead of having to calculate resistors. I assume as it needs 1w thats why as 1w pots are bulky

Inverted Enable Line. Why not just add a small transistor to invert the logic? Should be safer

Re: Sanguish development
June 10, 2013 12:19PM
Thanks for all the feedback. This is exactly what I was hoping for from the beta testing.

As shipped, the microstep settings are X = 1/16, Y = 1/16, Z = 1/2, and E = 1/8

Board cleanup, silkscreen, indicator LED's and reset cap are all on the to-do list for 1.0.

Mounting holes were lost during the push to shrink to under 10x10 cm for the cheap board house pricing. With a bit more arranging it should be possible to put them back.

I'm not sure I trust the 4W minifit connector for high current supply as in HBP and Hot end power. I have burned out a minifit connector on my makerbot with a much smaller heated bed. I know on Gen7 it is recommended to bypass that connector when using a heated bed.

I'll have to look at putting in a USB-serial chip on board.

Current limit is set by the current sense resistors which need to be pretty beefy so it's very hard to find a pot that is 1. low resistance (0-1 Ohm) , 2. handles the power, and 3. is affordable. With pololu's, current limit is set through a reference voltage so a small pot is fine.

Torque jumpers are for setting current lower than the max limit from the current limiting resistors. You can get 100%, 75%, 50%, and 20% of the max current through the torque jumper settings.

I haven't had any issues with the heated bed. It worked fine as is, but the traces got a bit warmer than I like so I reinforced them. That will be fixed in 1.0 by using the space better to add copper on both sides.

Enable line: It seems to me that active high logic (as it currently works) would be safer than active low. It is a bit of a pain to invert from the original active low on some firmware but I've had problems with ATX supplies getting turned on at inappropriate times (ie. board power is from USB and computer is turned off so ATX comes on.) With active high logic at least you know the ATmega must be powered on before the stepper power relay can be switched.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2013 12:36PM by bryanandaimee.
Re: Sanguish development
June 10, 2013 12:31PM
Personally i think HPB control should be offboard. I made small mosfet breakouts with footprint for minifit 4 and 6 way, plus two molex disc connectors and two screw merminals. With decent screw terminals out for the heatbed. 2pin 0.1 header and small patch wire to controller for signal and gnd. Keeps high current wires short, frees a lot of space on controller. Hpb control stays wired while i swop controllers. Its a once off expense and cost about USD6.00 incl pcb, mosfets, connectors and LED. Already desoldered your mosfet and tacked wires to pad to my hpb to my mosfet board.

Thanks will jot down microstepping and share pics

Want to test some NEMA23s since I have the current too.

Then a good burn in test but so far looks okay.

Can you export schematic to PDF, gEDa on my new notebook full of ut.

Suspect there are a few pins I want to argue with (I2C for lcd, etc)

Re: Sanguish development
June 10, 2013 12:44PM
For the purpose of having the most efficient power system you are likely right about separate HBP and Hot end supply boards. For the purpose of having a low cost solution I think you save enough by integrating it on board to justify the all-in-one board.

I have board layout and schematics as JPG files on the wiki on the Use Sanguish page, but I can send you PDF if that's more convenient.

Re: Sanguish development
June 10, 2013 12:50PM
Yes please. I am on a mobile device and the black background screenshot is hard to read.

Agreed, makes sense to integrate. Safety vs cost though (:

Re: Sanguish development
June 10, 2013 02:42PM
Here are some PDF's

And please let me know of any pinout changes you might like. The extension header is something I need to look at for compatibility with add on boards.
Re: Sanguish development
June 22, 2013 03:22PM
The drivers are $4.40 (1) (£2.84), $3.87 (£2.52) (10) from deal extreme (china and you may have to wait)

Re: Sanguish development
June 24, 2013 11:35PM
You can get them for about $2.50 each if you buy 5 or 10 on ebay. I've ordered through Polida, and GC_Supermarket. Both seem to ship about the same speed. I've had no problems with either seller.

On a similar note, Mouser has dropped the tb6560ahq(0) for the updated tb6560ahq(0,8). It is more expensive, but the price should come down as quantity ramps up. I would expect that by the time the supply of the older model is exhausted, the new revision will be in a similar price range.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2013 11:37PM by bryanandaimee.
Re: Sanguish development
July 11, 2013 01:14PM
I have not used my Sanguish as much as I would have wanted to but here's what I did have issues with (sorry I always believe Beta is the time to mention that more than whats good - good there is but take the complaints as positive criticism meant in a very positive way )

Current setting: I asked Bryan to preset the current to my standard config which works quite well, no issues. But I wanted to test it on something beefier as well, which I have yet to do because

1. I haven't had to time to study datasheet, calculate new resistors, etc
and 2 having to desolder, solder new ones, etc for switching current is not ideal

Silkscreen - mentioned above - but having to dig out a cheatsheet was also a turn off

Otherwise my rest has been updated above (layout etc)

Nice board by the way. Version 3 will be great (; The one with onboard USB and either pots or lever dipswitches for current
Re: Sanguish development
July 11, 2013 02:37PM
Yes, current setting is a bit more cumbersome than on pololu's. The current is set by a combination of current sense resistors and torque jumpers. The resistors I have been using are 1 ohm and 0.5 ohm. The 0.5 ohm resistors give you 1 amp of current and the 1 ohm resistors give you 0.5 amps of current. Each coil has two spots for resistors in parallel so the current from each resistor just adds to the total. So to increase current by 0.5 amp you solder in 1 ohm resistors into the 8 remaining spots, or to increase by 1 amp you solder in 0.5 ohm resistors.

The actual equation is just 0.5V / R where R is the total resistance (added in parallel) of the two current sense resistors on each coil.

So it should be pretty easy using just the two values to get 0.5, 1, 1.5 or 2 amps max current. From the max current you can set the torque jumpers to give 100%, 75%, 50% and 20% of that max current setting.

On that note, I hope everyone got the email, the 1 ohm resistors I sent out to some of the beta testers were actually 180 ohm resistors. (with 1% resistors it's very hard to tell the difference and Mouser sent me the wrong ones.) If you got the bad ones or just need a set that I didn't include, let me know and I'll send some out.

Any thoughts on what a kit ought to include? Perhaps add in some 1.5 ohm resistors for a 0.3 amp step in current?

I looked into POT's and couldn't find anything that would handle the current (up to 3 amps) and also had the right range of resistance (.20 to 2 ohms.) for anything like a reasonable price. It's much easier when there is a Vref pin as in pololu's rather than a current sense resistor.

For a set of lever switches to work you would likely need at least 4 resistors in parallel rather than the two on the board now. Perhaps 0.5, 0.5, 1, 1.5. To keep it within the 10cmx10cm requirement of the cheap board houses would likely require smt resistors for at least 2 of those (which is OK). But I haven't seen dip switches at a reasonable price. At $2 from Mouser that would add $8 to the wholesale kit price just for the dip switches.
Re: Sanguish development
July 12, 2013 05:58AM
So 0.25ohm would give 2A?

(my nema 23's I wanted to push it to the max with are 2A) - nice burn in test - if it runs that without smoking it's perfect

PS: Is the board 24v compatible? (obviously will need to heatsink the 7805 as at 24 they run hot.

Lastly, why is there two spots of two paralel resistors? Each winding their own current sense resistor?


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2013 06:05AM by peter6960.
Re: Sanguish development
July 12, 2013 11:06AM
Yes, .25 ohm = 2 A. I have 2A motors and it runs them just fine. I've run them at full 2A more than once. I currently run them at 1.5 amp to keep the motors cooler and I don't even have a fan on the drivers. They just get warm. At full 2A you might want a fan on the drivers, but no need for a heatsink.

For 24V you need to switch out the relay or add a current limiting resistor for the relay coil. The resistor would have to be added by cutting the trace from FET to coil and then soldering the resistor across the trace. Which reminds me, I think I should probably add a resistor to the relay coil in V1.0 for flexibilities sake. Also the heater indicator LED's may need a larger resistor to avoid burnout if you are planning 24V on the heaters as well.

Yes, each winding on the motors has it's own current sense resistor.

I don't remember if I included extra 0.5 ohm resistors in your package but if not I can send some. I also have some 24V relays if you want to switch without cutting traces on the board.
Re: Sanguish development
July 13, 2013 07:13AM
Uhm, Brian, could you look into this one: [reprap.org] ? I'd like to integrate Sanguish into Teacup, but I'm not sure wether the files you provide do what you intend them to do.

Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
Re: Sanguish development
July 13, 2013 03:01PM
Well, I'm not quite sure either but it is what I intended. The power on pin on Sanguish only controls a FET that drives a relay that switches power to the stepper drivers. I left it as an output when off to ensure that the FET would switch off. I wasn't sure it would switch fully off if I left it as an input when off. There is no ATX power control pin on the Sanguish board.

Also there is no 5V input unless the user leaves the 5V jumper connecting USB-Serial to 5V on the board. Under normal opperation 5V comes from the 12-24V motor supply through a 7805 regulator.
Re: Sanguish development
July 14, 2013 02:40PM
Been scrouging your schematics with a eagle eye looking for any potential issues that could ruin your next run: here's some comments:

Enable Lines - seems each chips has a seperate Enable line to the MCU? Waste of pins - they can all be run off one Enable pin, sometimes nice if Z is seperate (Disable Z while not in use) but i prefer the Gen7 style - all drivers enabled/disabled together. Those pins could be better utlised on accesories (:

Current limit resistor on TQ/MS/DC lines - tying them directly to 5v (when jumper is closed) is not good practise, really needs a 1k 0.25w or so between the jumpers and VCC, (even if just one like Gen7's MS has)

Inverted Enable line - I don't know if it has been discussed, but a simple transistor based inverting of the signal is an option?
May help protect board from users just willy-nilly uploading firmware

No back-emf diodes on the TB6560's outputs? This one I am up for correction, just noting the Chinese tb6560 cnc boards all have backemf diodes, not sure if thats just added protection, or required.

Make both Heater Power and Motor Power the same size of bigger screw terminal, those small green ones are a PITA


Re: Sanguish development
July 15, 2013 12:22PM
Enable lines- agree, I mostly did that because routing was easier that way. I'll look at it.

Current limit-agree, I'll put it on the list

Enable line- not sure. isn't it safer to require +5V to turn the relay on? That way even with no firmware, or bad 7805 or some other fault, you don't get the relay on unless 5V is good and atmega is running.

diodes - I've seen a few comments from other designers that they are not required. They are not shown in the reference schematic on the datasheet. I'm not opposed to including them, I'm just not sure I could fit it into the space available. Perhaps some SMD ones on the back?

teminals-agreed, the green ones are from mouser. I bought them first, and got the better ones later. I mostly used them to differentiate the high current connectors from the low current ones. That won't be necessary with a better silkscreen, and I'll just use the bigger ones.
Re: Sanguish development
July 27, 2013 02:06PM
Sanguish 1.0 RC1 is here! Comments and suggestions are appreciated.

Sanguish 1.0 Release Candidate 1
Re: Sanguish development
July 27, 2013 02:40PM
That USB section looks all wrong: Max 233 is not a USB-Uart?
Re: Sanguish development
July 27, 2013 07:01PM
It's actually a MCP2200 I just haven't bothered to make a custom schematic symbol and part yet. It should be routed correctly for the MCP2200 (I hope)

Also I downloaded the symbol and footprint for the usb connector and it doesn't seem to link to the schematic correctly. It shows up on the board when I list it in the footprint attribute but the connections on the schematic don't seem to transfer. So all the pins on the USB connector show as shorted on the board. So I may have to create something for that too.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2013 07:03PM by bryanandaimee.
Re: Sanguish development
August 09, 2013 01:16PM
Have you considered using one resonator intead of a crystal and two caps? The Murata-Electronics CSTLS20M0X53-B0 is ideally suited for this, lowers the parts count as well as the cost.
Re: Sanguish development
August 10, 2013 10:17PM
Yes, although the crystal is about the same price at the supplier I use and the caps are pennies. Also the crystal is tighter tolerance. Not sure if that makes any difference with our type of use. I did go with a ceramic resonator for the MCP2200 for reasons of space. It seems to work fine. A resonator would probably fit much better there under the ATmega too.
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