Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile

Advanced

FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear

Posted by FA-MAS 
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 10, 2017 05:16PM
IT MOVES!

Not so far from printing, I'm noticing something

Running Duet Wifi with firmware 1.19 and Kysan 1124090 Nema 17 stepper motors (the ones from my Prusa i2 for now)
And the motors are kind of making a hissing noise

I know the current is correct, they're 1.5A
I've tried them from 1.5A all the way down to 0.8A

Any ideas on what I should look at?

Edit: details on motors, it's definitely the motors making noise. If I disable them, it goes away.
https://ultimachine.com/collections/electronics/products/kysan-1124090-nema-17-stepper-motor

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2017 05:26PM by FA-MAS.
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 03:36AM
Unless it's loud, don't worry about it. It happens with some combinations of motor inductance and supply voltage. It may be possible to adjust the chopper control register setting to eliminate it, but for now I suggest you concentrate on getting your machine printing.


Delta printer calibration calculator, mini IR Z probe, and colour touch screen control panel: [escher3d.com]

Large delta printer, and other 3D printer blog postings: [miscsolutions.wordpress.com]

Disclosure: I have a financial interest in sales of the Panel Due, Mini IR height sensor, and Duet WiFi/Duet Ethernet [www.duet3d.com].
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 09:05AM
It actually is really loud. Was trying to keep the new machine quiet. It is running on 12v, think you might assist with the stepper wiper options?

In the future I'm going to be ordering some new 0.9 degree steppers and 24v power supply., any recommendations?

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2017 09:17AM by FA-MAS.
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 09:44AM
These work great on my kossel Xl, [www.omc-stepperonline.com]


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 10:00AM
0.9 steppers will work on 12v, I just won't be able to get the most out of the torque, and the higher speeds?
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 10:14AM
Correct in theory even low inductance motors will generate enough power when run at 12v to reduce your chances of getting them to spin fast, at 24v it's less of an issue. How fast do you want to go?


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 10:16AM
Well, more than my old printer (30 mm/s), and fast enough to complete non print moves quickly enough to avoid ooze.

Edit: I know retraction and pressure control options, thereally always seems to be some amount of ooze. Would kind of like to see 100 mm/sec sustained print speed.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2017 10:20AM by FA-MAS.
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 10:52AM
100 mm/s printing should be fine. It'll be more convincing on 24v. I can move my effector at 360mm/s. It might move faster I've never tried going as high as possible its scary seeing it go at 360! Printing at 120mm/s is certainly possible but not with very great quality.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 10:58AM
Yeah, I'd probably not print at 120 mm/sec, probably only 90 mm/sec max. Though I'd like non extrude moves to be as fast as possible. Another question for you DJDemonD, would you post your complete configuration file please? Since our printer geometry, except for the arms is the same, I'd like to not have to re-invent the wheel.
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 11:03AM
Sure I'll do that now.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 11:11AM
Please check it line by line, as some things are not necessarily going to work. You'll find quite a bit commented out, these are usually old configs I'm keeping in case I go back to some previous setup.

kosselXLconfig.zip

For Duetwifi/ethernet

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2017 11:12AM by DjDemonD.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 12:59PM
These motors should work right? Same as ones DJDemonD posted, but higher Amp, lower Phase Resistance and Inductance.

https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/hybrid-stepper-motor/nema-17-bipolar-09deg-46ncm-651ozin-2a-28v-42x42x48mm-4-wires-17hm19-2004s.html?search=17HM19-2004S

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2017 12:59PM by FA-MAS.
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 02:13PM
Quote
FA-MAS
These motors should work right? Same as ones DJDemonD posted, but higher Amp, lower Phase Resistance and Inductance.

https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/hybrid-stepper-motor/nema-17-bipolar-09deg-46ncm-651ozin-2a-28v-42x42x48mm-4-wires-17hm19-2004s.html?search=17HM19-2004S

Those are a good match for the Duet WiFi and Duet Ethernet.

See [www.duet3d.com] to work out whether you need 24V to achieve the speed you want.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2017 02:15PM by dc42.


Delta printer calibration calculator, mini IR Z probe, and colour touch screen control panel: [escher3d.com]

Large delta printer, and other 3D printer blog postings: [miscsolutions.wordpress.com]

Disclosure: I have a financial interest in sales of the Panel Due, Mini IR height sensor, and Duet WiFi/Duet Ethernet [www.duet3d.com].
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 02:15PM
Yeah I kind of wished I'd bought those, but to be fair its not slow or lacking accuracy so no biggie.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2017 02:16PM by DjDemonD.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 11, 2017 04:05PM
Just ordered those motors from Amazon, they'll be here tomorrow.
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 13, 2017 06:03PM
Quote
dc42
See [www.duet3d.com] to work out whether you need 24V to achieve the speed you want.

So I threw together a little calculator with the info on the wiki, just fill out the bold items and it will calculate it for you. Helps to show relation to speed and operating voltage of a motor. Though I'm sure if you drop the operating voltage to obtain a higher speed, that torque would suffer, am I correct?
Attachments:
open | download - delta_speed_calc.xlsx (10.3 KB)
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 14, 2017 04:36PM
Still waiting on my motors, Amazon had some kind of mix up and they got lost/never shipped.
So they refunded and I reordered.

In the mean time, thinking about a 24v power supply.
Since I won't have a heated bed, and even when I do I plan to run it from mains with a SSR, I'm thinking I'd like to use a laptop style power brick, thus I can hide the brick somewhere while still not taking up space in the under compartment of the printer.

https://adapterfamily.com/index.php?id_product=56130&controller=product&id_lang=1
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 14, 2017 04:52PM
For that kind of money, I'd just buy a PSU and have what you need later down the road. Can always run longer and even smaller VIN wires if not running a bed.
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 14, 2017 05:08PM
Yeah, any fairly standard laptop-style PSU will work. I took half the case off mine and printed a new case top with a lot of holes in it for ventilation. 150W is plenty.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 15, 2017 01:33PM
Could someone give me a crash course on delta calibration.

From what I understand, these are the basic assumptions
Endstops are at the max height, as long as they're all exactly the same height, the nozzle should be exactly in the middle of the printer. Endstop offsets can adjust this.
When you tell it to go down (to Z0.1 for example), it should be just above the print surface, directly in the middle of the printer, correct?

The probing is where I get confused.
Seems like it measures chosen points determines what needs an adjustment based off of how far away from the bed the probe triggers
Seems like it's going off the assumption that the motors, belts, pulleys and steps per mm are correct, as well as the delta arm length.

So I can say I'm confident in the motors, pulleys, belts and steps per mm.
The delta arm length I am sure is exact between all of my arms. But I don't know the exact number, I didn't measure before I assembled. But I do have the measurement from the CAD.

So say it wanted to measure X0,Y106 and it's assuming it's actually getting there to do it.
Only thing I could see throwing it off would be the delta arm length of which I am exactly unsure.

Am I over thinking it? Should I just lash on the probe (i mean epoxy the mount for it onto my cooling fan shroud), do autocalibration, then just print and adjust delta arm length if the test parts come out sized wrong?

Edit: Also, my probe mount would put it about 10mm away from the nozzle, i can set an offset in the firmware? Then it'll know where to actually place the probe for the nozzle to be at the particular probe point?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2017 01:39PM by FA-MAS.
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 15, 2017 02:22PM
Sounds like you've got it all figured out. I'd do exactly what you said there.

see thus also presuming youre using duet [www.duet3d.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2017 02:22PM by DjDemonD.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 16, 2017 12:01PM
Quote
FA-MAS
https://adapterfamily.com/index.php?id_product=56130&controller=product&id_lang=1

Quick electronics question, say the above power supply can supply 24V at up to 6A

If I use a DC Barrel Jack rated at 48V at up to 6.5A, should be ok right?

Like this one, https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tensility-international-corp/54-00063/839-1291-ND/6206244

Still waiting on motors btw. Delivery company decided to not even try coming to my door even though it was unobstructed and I was home.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2017 12:01PM by FA-MAS.
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 16, 2017 12:21PM
Quote
dougal1957
you will not be able to get the lengths spot on if you thread them so go for 4mm ID tude and epoxy the screws in after attaching the Rod ends so that you can get them the same length

Yup, threading things together will make it impossible to get the all the lengths the same and have the rod ends face the same direction. Just rough up the side of the tube, use a jig, and epoxy everything together.
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 16, 2017 12:26PM
Quote
firefly555
Yup, threading things together will make it impossible to get the all the lengths the same and have the rod ends face the same direction. Just rough up the side of the tube, use a jig, and epoxy everything together.

I ended up using 4mm ID tubes, threading and screwing the set screws into the rod ends, then I glued one end onto each rod and stood them vertical through the holes in the box you see in the picture below. After that had dried, I created and used the jig in the picture and glued the other end on each rod. I did them one at a time and used only the one part of the jig so I knew they were exactly the same.


Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 16, 2017 12:49PM
Figured I'd also show how I mounted the E3D Titan.

I bought these steel motor brackets from Amazon. The slots were too far apart to line up with the slots in the 2040, so I printed a jig to drill the hole you see in the picture.



Then I mounted the Titan.



Edit:

Oh yeah, the bed mounts too. Printed in brown ABS cause that's all I had and kinda crappy. Will be reprinted with the new machine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2017 12:54PM by FA-MAS.
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 17, 2017 11:16AM
Got the new Igus bearings with adjustable preload. Got them installed and I was able to take out most of the play. If I took out any more, they would not move on the rail.
I am slightly disappointed that the adjustment screws are plastic, felt like I was damaging them just by turning them.

I also got the new motors. Installed them too

While operating they are much quieter than my originals.
However, it still bugs me that they're loud when they're idle.

Edit: I also ran a "test print" last night.

I turned on cold extrusion. The extruder motor, hotend heater, thermistor or fan weren't connected. I also had the homed height about 100 mm too short so it wouldn't crash on the bed. It was going super slow, even though I told it to do 60 mm/sec.

After I slept on it, I realized that I had told Slic3r to set the extruder to absolute, but firmware is set to relative. I fixed that in Slic3r, as well as combed through my config file, corrected delta radius and set homed height, speeds and accelerations. Then tried the same print at 90 mm/sec.

Crashed the nozzle into the bed, at full non print travel speed (120 mm/sec). I forgot that I had set the homed height extra large so I could inch it down to the bed and find the actual homed height. Luckily I had my hand on the power switch, hit it a few mm above the bed but it still took a second to stop and the motors stuttered. No damage though.

Updated homed height so it was a few mm above the bed and ran the same print again.

Now that's working correctly, fast as I expected. I even bumped it up to 120 mm/sec. I see no play in any of the mechanics, rod ends or bearings. I think it will do well.

I also epoxied my probe mount (dc42's ir sensor) so that the bottom of the board is slightly over 1.5 mm away when the nozzle is touching the bed. I will configure auto calibration tonight and hopefully get a first print.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2017 11:47AM by FA-MAS.
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 17, 2017 11:20AM
You must be young, give it a few years and those pesky frequencies won't be bothering you smiling smiley


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 17, 2017 11:49AM
What's funny is that my ears are kind of odd. Sometimes they pick up nothing at all, sometimes they pick up everything. I have no problem with the sound, I can block it out. It's the wife test that it needs to pass, since it is in close proximity to where we spend most of our time, it needs to be quiet.
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 17, 2017 12:04PM
Also, if someone would take a look at my config.g and double check me that it's sane, or if you have suggestions for changes.
I haven't configured the autocalibration stuff, so the probe section is probably wrong.

; Configuration file for Duet WiFi (firmware version 1.17 to 1.19)
; executed by the firmware on start-up
;
; generated by RepRapFirmware Configuration Tool on Fri Nov 10 2017 13:27:35 GMT-0800 (PST)

; General preferences
M111 S0 ; Debugging off
G21 ; Work in millimetres
G90 ; Send absolute coordinates...
M83 ; ...but relative extruder moves
M555 P2 ; Set firmware compatibility to look like Marlin

;*** The homed height is deliberately set too high in the following - you will adjust it during calibration.
M665 R164 L334 B75 H270 ; Set delta radius, diagonal rod length, printable radius and homed height
M666 X0 Y0 Z0 ; Put your endstop adjustments here, or let auto calibration find them
M208 Z0 S1 ; Set minimum Z

; Endstops
M574 X2 Y2 Z2 S1 ; Define active high microswitches
;M558 P1 X0 Y0 Z0 H5 F120 T6000 ; Set Z probe type to unmodulated, the axes for which it is used and the probe + travel speeds
;G31 P600 X0 Y0 Z2.5 ; Set Z probe trigger value, offset and trigger height
;M557 R75 S20 ; Define mesh grid
M558 P0 ; Set probe type to no probe, remove after probe is installed

; Drives
M569 P0 S0 ; Drive 0 goes forwards
M569 P1 S0 ; Drive 1 goes forwards
M569 P2 S0 ; Drive 2 goes forwards
M569 P3 S1 ; Drive 3 goes forwards
M350 X16 Y16 Z16 E16 I1 ; Configure microstepping with interpolation
M92 X200 Y200 Z200 E837 ; Set steps per mm
M566 X1000 Y1000 Z1000 E100 ; Set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min)
M203 X7200 Y7200 Z7200 E7200 ; Set maximum speeds (mm/min)
M201 X3000 Y3000 Z200 E200 ; Set accelerations (mm/s^2)
M906 X1000 Y1000 Z1000 E1000 I30 ; Set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in per cent
M84 S30 ; Set idle timeout

; Heaters
M143 S290 ; Set maximum heater temperature to 290C
M140 H-1 ; Disable heated bed
M305 P1 T100000 B3950 C0 R4700 ; Set thermistor + ADC parameters for heater 1

; Tools
M563 P0 D0 H1 ; Define tool 0
G10 P0 X0 Y0 Z0 ; Set tool 0 axis offsets
G10 P0 R0 S0 ; Set initial tool 0 active and standby temperatures to 0C

; Network
M550 PMy Printer ; Set machine name
M552 S1 ; Enable network
; Access point is configured manually via M587 by the user
M586 P0 S1 ; Enable HTTP
M586 P1 S0 ; Disable FTP
M586 P2 S0 ; Disable Telnet

; Fans
M106 P0 S0.3 I0 F500 H-1 ; Set fan 0 value, PWM signal inversion and frequency. Thermostatic control is turned off
M106 P1 S1 I0 F500 H1 T45 ; Set fan 1 value, PWM signal inversion and frequency. Thermostatic control is turned on
M106 P2 S1 I0 F500 H1 T45 ; Set fan 2 value, PWM signal inversion and frequency. Thermostatic control is turned on

; Custom settings are not configured
Re: FA-MAS mostly metal delta build - AKA Metal Gear
November 17, 2017 03:50PM
Looks okay but to be fair I'm not great at scanning these things and spotting the errors. More likely to fire it up and debug it that way.


Simon.

[www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters. PT1000 cartridge sensors plug straight into duet boards and others.
Published:Inventions
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login