Duet 2 Maestro launched

The new Duet 2 Maestro electronics for 3D printers has been launched at [fitforlaunch.com]. This 3D printer control board is a joint venture between Duet3D and M3D. We (Duet3D) designed the Duet 2 Maestro to meet M3D's requirements, and they are managing production. This is a board that maintains the high standards and functionality of the generation 2 Duet electronics, while omitting some of the features that increase cost and are not needed in many 3D printers, such as high-current stepper drivers and high expandability.

There is a comparison of the Duet 2 Maestro and the other generation 2 Duets at [duet3d.dozuki.com].

Like the other Duets, the Maestro will be fully open sourced when it is in full production. Builds of RepRapFirmware for the Duet 2 Maestro are already available at [github.com] for the stable release and [github.com] for the development RTOS release.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2018 04:49PM by dc42.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Real 1.6A stepper drivers are good enough for most users.
Will we see any perfomance issues on a Delta from a MPU without hardware FPU?
A local 12864 LCD is nice to have, when the main control panel is still DWC. Does the LCD-support include encoder, like the smart-LCD?

The performance will be just fine on a delta. The time-critical square root calculations are done in integer maths. The first several versions of RRF for the Duet WiFi didn't enable the floating point unit, and they ran deltas very well.

The 12864 support includes a rotary encoder/push button, and the two 10-way ribbon cable sockets are compatible with RepRapDiscount and similar display/encoder combos.

We've yet to quantify whether 1.6A peak motor current will be achievable in practice. It would certainly need a fan cooling the board. I expect to do this testing next week when pre-production boards are available.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

I volunteer for a pre-production board
In fact, I could use two:
One for my pre-production Compact Carrier/Delrin ball Delta ( 1.7A, 1.8° steppers )
One to replace the RADDS board with TMC2100 on my CoreXY.

But I don't want to push you...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2018 03:12AM by o_lampe.

Interesting development, any idea of price difference? though I think I'd need the higher amp orig version more.

The Duet 2 Maestro is available to pre-order from M3D's web site at prices starting at US$99, see link in first post. I received two pre-production boards last week for running extended tests. One of them is running well in my Ormerod printer, using a 2.0beta RTOS build of RepRapFirmware.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2018 01:58AM by dc42.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

What's "CERN OSH License v1.2"? Can't find any references. The only CERN I can find is OHL

I'll add this board to my comparison tool in the mean time. Thanks for sharing!

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Proud owner and maker of build from scratch FDM 3D printer [forums.reprap.org]

I think it means CERN OHL.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Can you use the maestro board with no endstop ? (using the stall detection like prusa do ?)

I'm quite interested in this board ! I find the price/performance very good ! ( and about duet Wifi same question ? I really want to get rid of those endstops)

The stepper drivers used in the Maestro do not support stall detection, so you still need endstops. OTOH sensorless homing is over-rated (it's not very accurate, so if you re-home in the middle of a print then the position could easily be +/- 1 full step different), and the TMC2224 drivers on the Maestro have some advantages over the TMC2130, e.g. stealthchop2 support and a little more current capability.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2018 06:08PM by dc42.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Ok ! thank you for the answer !

hows the release date of these coming along?

There was an update in late May at [fitforlaunch.com]. Production is being handled by M3D so I don't have a detailed timescale right now. I'll see what I can find out.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
fitforlaunch_page
BETA TESTERS WANTED

As Duet3D and M3D are testing the boards on their own, we also have some early demo units to send to beta testers and reviewers, as well as 3D printing influencers who have experience with evaluation of technical products.

Asking explicitly for influencers leaves a foul taste ....
Although they are asked for their "true" opinion, they are more like "cheerleaders". One bad review and they never get invited again....

Quote
o_lampe

Quote
fitforlaunch_page
BETA TESTERS WANTED

As Duet3D and M3D are testing the boards on their own, we also have some early demo units to send to beta testers and reviewers, as well as 3D printing influencers who have experience with evaluation of technical products.

Asking explicitly for influencers leaves a foul taste ....
Although they are asked for their "true" opinion, they are more like "cheerleaders". One bad review and they never get invited again....

I agree with you. We've asked M3D to make it clear that they posted the update, not any of us at Duet3D.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2018 12:33PM by dc42.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Excited about this as the Duet WiFi always seemed like a very expensive update to my Duet 0.6! Buy this seems more reasonable.

Will the price increase after the "Kickstarter" like campaign has ended?

I'm gonna have to wait until there are some EU boards in stock as shipping form the states will kill the price.

Also are there any plans for a sub-populated version with 3 or 4 stepper drivers for example like smoothie did further reducing the cost?

Keep up the good work!

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2018 05:42PM by veryevil.

No plans for a version with fewer stepper drivers populated. I don't expect the $129 price for the retail pack including the connector kit to increase, and I hope it will eventually reduce as production ramps up and when the current shortage of some electronic components ends.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Two month after announcement, I just visited the fitforlaunch page again and saw the first batches are still not sold ( 22% for the 2month delivery and 17% for the 1month delivery date )
I didn't expect that!?

This board doesn't meet peoples expectations it seems?
What are they missing?
WiFi
Stall detection/ sensorless homing
Beefy stepper drivers
A set of crimp connectors and housings ( retail package is sold out long ago or they took it from their page for unknown reasons)
Postage to EU to expensive?

Are there any early reviews I haven't seen here, keeping people from jumping on the train?

AFAIK there have been no reviews of the Duet 2 Maestro yet.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Hi, can I ask what PHY is used on this? Also any idea when schematics will be available?

Thanks

The Ethernet is handled by a W5500 chip which includes both the MAC and the PHY.

Schematics will be released when the presales period is over and normal production and stocking established.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
o_lampe
Two month after announcement, I just visited the fitforlaunch page again and saw the first batches are still not sold ( 22% for the 2month delivery and 17% for the 1month delivery date )
I didn't expect that!?

This board doesn't meet peoples expectations it seems?
1)What are they missing?
1)WiFi
2)Stall detection/ sensorless homing
3)Beefy stepper drivers
4)A set of crimp connectors and housings ( retail package is sold out long ago or they took it from their page for unknown reasons)
5)Postage to EU to expensive?

Are there any early reviews I haven't seen here, keeping people from jumping on the train?

Without Wifi I can live, but would be nice to have it as running additional cable will be a nuisance.

A lower current limit for stepper drivers is a thing that's bit worries me, as my current board with a4988 driver which I believe is 1.3A seems to be on a limit to handle existing 1.68A steppers at higher speeds and I got new steppers for an upgrade that are rated at 2.0A.
Switching to 24V would probably help there but that would mean to get new PSU and all heaters at least as current ones are 12V.

As for postage, it depends, main problem is the additional cost that pile up localy, with $20-30 postage it gets almost more expensive than Duet Wifi.

Quote
xrodney
A lower current limit for stepper drivers is a thing that's bit worries me, as my current board with a4988 driver which I believe is 1.3A seems to be on a limit to handle existing 1.68A steppers at higher speeds and I got new steppers for an upgrade that are rated at 2.0A.
Switching to 24V would probably help there but that would mean to get new PSU and all heaters at least as current ones are 12V.

I have run the Duet Maestro at up to 1.4A, with a 40mm fan to cool the Duet. So the maximum current you can use is comparable or perhaps just a little lower than you can use with plug-in A4988 drivers. The big advantages are that you know what current you are getting (because you set it in firmware), and the firmware warns you if the drivers are getting too hot well before they cut out and you lose steps.

Quote

As for postage, it depends, main problem is the additional cost that pile up localy, with $20-30 postage it gets almost more expensive than Duet Wifi.

Which country are you in? It won't be long before we start shipping them from the UK.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2018 01:56AM by dc42.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
dc42
I have run the Duet Maestro at up to 1.4A, with a 40mm fan to cool the Duet. So the maximum current you can use is comparable or perhaps just a little lower than you can use with plug-in A4988 drivers. The big advantages are that you know what current you are getting (because you set it in firmware), and the firmware warns you if the drivers are getting too hot well before they cut out and you lose steps.

Sure, but I have my doubts if Duet Maestro can handle new higher current steppers which I wanted to use on recommended 85% which makes 2.0A*0.85=1.7A current, according to spec 1.6A is close, but would it be a good idea to run it on spec limit?
BTW my new steppers are:

Manufacturer Part Number: 17HS19-2004S1
Motor Type: Bipolar Stepper
Step Angle: 1.8 deg
Holding Torque: 59Ncm(84oz.in)
Rated Current/phase: 2.0A
Voltage: 2.8V
Phase Resistance: 1.4ohms
Inductance: 3.0mH ± 20%(1KHz)

Cooling fans won't be a big issue as I am going ditch current control box and just extend my CR10 base and put everything in the box below it and will use likely 120mm fans there.
The whole point in getting stronger steppers and linear MHN12 rails on all axes was to increase accuracy and speed.

So... now I have to decide if risk getting Duet Maestro and hope it can handle max current which is still listed as to be confirmed or Duet Wifi to make it safe.

Tried to look at TMC2224 datasheets and it lists current at 1.2A which only increasing my doubts.

Quote
dc42

Which country are you in? It won't be long before we start shipping them from the UK.

Czech Republic

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2018 04:10AM by xrodney.

The 17HS19-2004 is a good choice of motor to use with the Duet WiFi/Ethernet, but 17HS19-1684 would be a better choice for most other controllers, including the Maestro and controllers using plug-in A4988 drivers. Controllers using the TMC2130 should be used with motors having an even lower current rating.

Many 3D printers run the stepper motors at only 60% of rated current, which would be 1.2A for your motors. So you would still get reasonable performance from them at 1.2A, just a bit less low-speed torque than they are capable of. At 1.4A you would be running them at 70% of rated current, which may be as high as you want to go anyway to avoid the motors getting hot.

The 1.4A current that was quoting is peak current per phase, because in 3D printing it has always been the custom to quote peak stepper motor current. The TMC datasheets all quote RMS currents. Multiply the RMS current by 1.414 to get the peak current.

HTH David

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
dc42
The 17HS19-2004 is a good choice of motor to use with the Duet WiFi/Ethernet, but 17HS19-1684 would be a better choice for most other controllers, including the Maestro and controllers using plug-in A4988 drivers. Controllers using the TMC2130 should be used with motors having an even lower current rating.

Many 3D printers run the stepper motors at only 60% of rated current, which would be 1.2A for your motors. So you would still get reasonable performance from them at 1.2A, just a bit less low-speed torque than they are capable of. At 1.4A you would be running them at 70% of rated current, which may be as high as you want to go anyway to avoid the motors getting hot.

The 1.4A current that was quoting is peak current per phase, because in 3D printing it has always been the custom to quote peak stepper motor current. The TMC datasheets all quote RMS currents. Multiply the RMS current by 1.414 to get the peak current.

HTH David

Thank you for the explanation.

Part of lost torque can be gain by switching from 12V to 24V, but that means I need to change few things.

Any recommendation for good 24V power supply (if possible silent)? I guess 480W or so should be sufficient for everything including 200-280W heated bed and 1-2 30-40W hotends?

As for fans, any chance to run them on 12V? Description on Maestro page is a bit vague in this case mentioning 5V or VIN (24V) but also mention other voltages can be used but I am not sure how?

Increasing driver supply voltage does not increase torque at low speeds (unless the motors have very high resistance), but does allow torque to be maintained up to higher speeds. There is a calculator to evaluate the effect of driver supply voltage at reprapfirmware.org.

If you want to run the fans at 12V you will need to supply 12V power directly to the positive fan wires. 24V fans are inexpensive.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2018 02:37AM by dc42.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
dc42
Increasing driver supply voltage does not increase torque at low speeds (unless the motors have very high resistance), but does allow torque to be maintained up to higher speeds. There is a calculator to evaluate the effect of driver supply voltage at reprapfirmware.org.

If you want to run the fans at 12V you will need to supply 12V power directly to the positive fan wires. 24V fans are inexpensive.

I probably didn't explain myself clearly.
What I meant was, that moving from 12V to 24V allows faster acceleration/deceleration before skipping as well as a higher threshold before start losing torque in silentchop mode.

According to tests on TMC2208 Silentchop threshold is ~100rev/[email protected] and ~250rev/[email protected] as per [www.youtube.com]

If my calculation is correct 100rev/min with 16 teeth pulley is around 63mm/s on belt which is not that much.

Does Reprap FW on Duet Maestro supports hybrid mode? (switching between silent chop and spread cycle mode at a certain speed) Sorry if stupid question but I am coming from Marlin and have so far have no experience with Reprap.

RRF does not yet support switching between stealthCop2 and spreadCycle dynamically depending on speed. It does allow you to switch between the two.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Is there any specific timeframe for Maestro to be available in UK for order?