Please help a newbie in the US

Hello all,

So I've gone through the entire beginner's guide on the wiki as well as a bunch of the build documents and I'm still lost. I *think* I want to make a Prusa i3 for my first build, but half the links in the wiki are dead or go to pages of vendors that have custom builds and not what the wiki was pointing to. Not only that, it seems like a lot of the pages where I found some useful information aren't linked in the home page so I find myself constantly chasing different links to try and get all the information I need because it's not in one spot.

I don't have a big budget, so I was considering starting out with a RepStrap build and moving up from there. Cheapest solution I could find on the wiki was a Lego-type build using the discontinued NXT set. I've found that available on eBay but it was about $250 and that didn't include everything you needed. Not exactly what I'd call the cheap solution, considering the wiki says that a Prusa can be made for about $300.

Another thing to consider is that because I'm in the US, imperial measured parts are easier (and sometimes cheaper) to get. Are there any US measurement build docs available? A BOM doc would be super useful too. I saw a total of one, but it was "development stage" and the page hadn't been updated in quite a while, so I don't know if it was abandoned or not. I think I'm suffering from information overload at this point.

Any help getting started would be appreciated. The cheaper the better. I don't have access to a water cutter or laser cutter or any of those things. I don't even own a saw, though I might be able to borrow one from a buddy. All I have available is "everyday" household stuff - allen wrenches, screwdrivers, multi-meter, soldering iron, stuff like that.

Thanks, all.

You'll be hard pressed to build an i3 for $300 even if you had fabrication tools. My suggestion on the less expensive end is a Printrbot Jr kit. A lot of them out there. Good support. [printrbot.com]

The current flavor of i3 right now is the i3 Rework. [reprap.org] It's a good iteration of the vanilla single plate Prusa i3. I think it offers the best value in an entry level printer right now. It has good instructions on the Wiki and from others around the Web and sourceing parts or complete kits is relatively easy. It can be had for between $450-600 for a complete kit once shipping is factored in. The price depends on the supplier with the qualtiy of parts and location of vendor being two of the main drviers of cost. Getting a kit with SAE components is going to be more trouble as you'll have to convert the measurements yourself. There are many vendors that sell hardware kits online, here, ebay, Amazon, etc.

I tried playing with a build using glue paper as the body and wooden dowels as rails. Even at that kind of cost cutting, on paper it was at least $250 [didn't finish planning it out, let alone build it, so I guarantee you it's more than $300 to build one from real materials]

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Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus

so for a build your own style you could follow this build. I have emailed back and forth with Marty and he is super responsive.

[reprap.org]

As for a kit, you could try this site - [shop.diytechshop.com]. I have been thinking about building the Omega XL, or the Wilson.

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MrDoctorDIV
I tried playing with a build using glue paper as the body and wooden dowels as rails. Even at that kind of cost cutting, on paper it was at least $250 [didn't finish planning it out, let alone build it, so I guarantee you it's more than $300 to build one from real materials]

This is a beautiful idea though, we've made furniture with paper and glue once.

The only downside is that you kind of need a mothermold to shape the parts and to let them dry. So you would still have to machine parts thus not really cutting the cost. Only if you 'mass produce' the paper printer parts.

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http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/

My idea with the paper was to use it similar to wood; flat, cut pieces. Fitted together via duct tape.
I had a problem finding a suitable adhesive findable at Walmart, but I only tried a few before I put the project on the back burner. I've since seen one or two that would work better.

---

Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus

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MrDoctorDIV
My idea with the paper was to use it similar to wood; flat, cut pieces. Fitted together via duct tape.
I had a problem finding a suitable adhesive findable at Walmart, but I only tried a few before I put the project on the back burner. I've since seen one or two that would work better.

Ah yeah, it's kind of mandatory to make folds in the paper to have it rigid, best to make a 'U' shape, but the corners in the folds don't have to be at exactly 90º so it could also be a triangular tube.

Once you start putting strips together, the joining lines become the weakest parts.

Hmmmmm this is starting to grow in my head. Maybe a nice idea to do when I am on holidays in one month............

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http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/

Another option is to use Makerslide --- the Ordbot is available as a fairly inexpensive mechanical kit (still kind of puzzled that it didn't become the default printer option at Inventables).

I'd like to second everything Vegasloki said.
I have had great luck with my Prusa i3 kit from 3dPrinterCzar. All parts included and a popular design. $500-$600 gets you started.

-Matt

Why no love for the Prusa i2?

Does it have flaws? Sure, but it'll teach you a lot about what to do and what not to do with a reprap. Besides, it's cheaper to build than an i3. The cheapest i3 frame I've seen is from seemecnc @ $40 That same $40 will go pretty far for the hardware for an i2.

An old spreadsheet for my i2 build. That was long ago though, and prices have changed. Peeps here on the forums will probably print you a whole set of i2 parts gratis. And some of the hardware is definitely less expensive now (LM8UU/608ZZ).

And since you're in the US, check out mcmaster.com - they have imperial and metric hardware at good prices (way better than you local hardware or a big box store).

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- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

Hey all, thanks for the suggestions. Apparently even though I have the box checked to email me, I didn't get any notifications for the responses. The thread isn't even in my followed threads Oh well.

@vegasloki - The Printrbot Jr - has that been renamed to the Simple kit? $350 isn't terrible, and that would be complete, correct? All I would have to do is assemble it, calibrate it, etc.?

All - does it matter which one I start with? I could always print out at least some of the parts for any other model once I have one up and running, right?

When you check those boxes you have to make a post, the options are posted with the post.
Else, you could use the Follow Topic link between the thread and reply box.

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Realizer- One who realizes dreams by making them a reality either by possibility or by completion. Also creating or renewing hopes of dreams.
"keep in mind, even the best printer can not print with the best filament if the user is the problem." -Ohmarinus

I had done that on the initial post. Seems like it worked on my reply, but not initially *shrug*

If it's any help, here's my source list for my i3 Rework. It's my first printer and I'm currently building it.

I'm at a bit over $500 total after picking up various parts I missed like wire connectors and extra nuts and washers. But I was doing much better than that and decided to splurge on a few things like Misumi rods and the E3D hot end, so I think you could definitely get closer to $400 if you want to.

When I was deciding what to build I looked pretty hard at the SImple too. Looks like a great fast way to get started. In the end I felt like I would quickly want to make enough upgrades to push me over $500, so I decided to just start with the i3.

EDIT: Oh, I should mention that most of my vitamins came from Misumi during their $150 credit promo, so I saved a lot there. However, I think you could do as well with a cheaper source. Misumi seems pretty high end.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2014 02:55PM by kellymc.

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kellymc
If it's any help, here's my source list for my i3 Rework. It's my first printer and I'm currently building it.

I'm at a bit over $500 total after picking up various parts I missed like wire connectors and extra nuts and washers. But I was doing much better than that and decided to splurge on a few things like Misumi rods and the E3D hot end, so I think you could definitely get closer to $400 if you want to.

When I was deciding what to build I looked pretty hard at the SImple too. Looks like a great fast way to get started. In the end I felt like I would quickly want to make enough upgrades to push me over $500, so I decided to just start with the i3.

EDIT: Oh, I should mention that most of my vitamins came from Misumi during their $150 credit promo, so I saved a lot there. However, I think you could do as well with a cheaper source. Misumi seems pretty high end.

Actually that helps a lot. Thank you. I didn't even realize there were Arduino clones out there. Quick question - why are the printed parts so expensive? It seems that's a big part of the cost.

I bought a Rostock Mini Pro kit from 3D Czar this spring, which is pretty much the limit of my experience. I will say that while I think it was easier to build then an i3, I am finding the calibration and such of the Rostock more difficult then what the i3 might have provided. So I am spending a lot more time on the "build" of the printer then on actually printing things.

As a result, I would suggest you take a moment to think about what you want. Do you want to learn about how 3D printers work or do you want to print 3D objects? I think an i3 would make a good intro to how printers work, and being your first project, you might consider just buying a kit. You won't be saving a lot of cash buying the parts individually, but you would be losing out on a possible source for help if you encounter issues.

On the otherhand, if you are more excited about printing stuff, consider a PrintrBot Simple. The wood kits are around $350 and can be expanded as your interest in the hobby expands. Wednesday nights, Adafruit offers a 10% off code, free shipping on orders over $200, and a free toy for orders over $99.

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Kurzaa
I bought a Rostock Mini Pro kit from 3D Czar this spring, which is pretty much the limit of my experience. I will say that while I think it was easier to build then an i3, I am finding the calibration and such of the Rostock more difficult then what the i3 might have provided. So I am spending a lot more time on the "build" of the printer then on actually printing things.

As a result, I would suggest you take a moment to think about what you want. Do you want to learn about how 3D printers work or do you want to print 3D objects? I think an i3 would make a good intro to how printers work, and being your first project, you might consider just buying a kit. You won't be saving a lot of cash buying the parts individually, but you would be losing out on a possible source for help if you encounter issues.

On the otherhand, if you are more excited about printing stuff, consider a PrintrBot Simple. The wood kits are around $350 and can be expanded as your interest in the hobby expands. Wednesday nights, Adafruit offers a 10% off code, free shipping on orders over $200, and a free toy for orders over $99.

Was digging around here and found this:

[replikeo.com]

As far as what I want, I guess basically I am interested in how 3D printers work, but more interested in printing 3D objects. However, learning about how they work may help me if I want to try my hand at improving the design (like printing BIGGER 3D objects. Haha) so I'm kind of torn on where to start. I like to tinker, but I'm no engineer, so I don't know how far I can go into the hobby before it just becomes more than I'm capable of and just want something that prints stuff.

If I'm remembering correctly, I think I have between $200-250 in my Smartrap. It wasn't the all exclusive kit. I bought the printed parts on eBay and sourced the rest myself. Last I saw the printed parts were in the ~$25ish range. I picked the steppers up at ~$60. Arduino, RAMPS, and drivers ~$45. 2x 36" 8mm O1 Drill rods ~$16. Jhead-lite hotend $25. Mk7 Extruder Gear $9. 12x LM8UU Bearings $12. 608 Bearing $1.50. PTFE tubing ~$9. 2x 8.5x11 picture frames $4. Screws/nuts $30. Wiring I salvaged from old computers.

My build was actually with a Huxley Style Hotend that ~$50. I also later upgraded to GT2 belts which were around $25 too...

Might check it out... Or the Simple which seems to have good support too.

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LittleMike
Quick question - why are the printed parts so expensive? It seems that's a big part of the cost.

Once you see how many hours it takes to print a complete set of printer parts, you will question why printed parts are so cheap! Figure 2-5 hours for every part, plus a few throwaways for failed prints.

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LittleMike
@vegasloki - The Printrbot Jr - has that been renamed to the Simple kit? $350 isn't terrible, and that would be complete, correct? All I would have to do is assemble it, calibrate it, etc.?

All - does it matter which one I start with? I could always print out at least some of the parts for any other model once I have one up and running, right?

If you decide that you want to build your own printer, having a working Printrbot to both makes parts and later scrounge components from might be a good idea. Otherwise, you can sell it as a name brand printer to someone else when you're done using it.....

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vreihen

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LittleMike
Quick question - why are the printed parts so expensive? It seems that's a big part of the cost.

Once you see how many hours it takes to print a complete set of printer parts, you will question why printed parts are so cheap! Figure 2-5 hours for every part, plus a few throwaways for failed prints.

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LittleMike
@vegasloki - The Printrbot Jr - has that been renamed to the Simple kit? $350 isn't terrible, and that would be complete, correct? All I would have to do is assemble it, calibrate it, etc.?

All - does it matter which one I start with? I could always print out at least some of the parts for any other model once I have one up and running, right?

If you decide that you want to build your own printer, having a working Printrbot to both makes parts and later scrounge components from might be a good idea. Otherwise, you can sell it as a name brand printer to someone else when you're done using it.....

Wow, 2-5 hours each piece? That makes a lot more sense why the price is so high, then. Not in materials, but in labor costs. That still doesn't explain why you can find all the Smartrap printed parts for $30, though. I guess they don't account for labor.

So what's your suggestion - getting a Printrbot complete kit, assembling it, using it to build a Prusa (or whatever I choose) and then selling it? What do you mean by selling it as a name brand? Is that what people are doing? Making their own and then selling them at a profit? I didn't realize you can get a return on investment like that.

In the sub $800 range you are pretty much limited to full or partial kit for the most features at the best value. In that price range you'll get the best bang for the buck by building. If you have the patience and ability to do so. It takes moderate technical skills but more than that the ability adapt and not get frustrated.

Print times vary but for me to print a set of Rework parts is just under 12 hours print time. I get about 3 sets from each kg of material so you can base the pricing on that. I use material that costs US$44/kg. A set of parts for a Rework or single pate i3 is around US$35 or so for good prints.

As for selling printers on your own it's going to take you a while before you are ready for that. The initial build and learning curve will likely be a couple of months and then some time after that to know printers well enough to be an informed seller. Not too long after you start printing you'll be able to print parts for your friends and to give away or use for yourself but it takes a bit to learn the ins and outs of getting good prints and finding the optimum configuration for each part.

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vegasloki
In the sub $800 range you are pretty much limited to full or partial kit for the most features at the best value. In that price range you'll get the best bang for the buck by building. If you have the patience and ability to do so. It takes moderate technical skills but more than that the ability adapt and not get frustrated.

Print times vary but for me to print a set of Rework parts is just under 12 hours print time. I get about 3 sets from each kg of material so you can base the pricing on that. I use material that costs US$44/kg. A set of parts for a Rework or single pate i3 is around US$35 or so for good prints.

As for selling printers on your own it's going to take you a while before you are ready for that. The initial build and learning curve will likely be a couple of months and then some time after that to know printers well enough to be an informed seller. Not too long after you start printing you'll be able to print parts for your friends and to give away or use for yourself but it takes a bit to learn the ins and outs of getting good prints and finding the optimum configuration for each part.

Well I don't think I'd buy a fully assembled unit either way. A full kit, maybe, but not a full printer. Well, if I went the full printer route, I would want something really "refined" like a Makerbot Replicator or something. But I don't have a grand to drop on something like that. I would rather want to put something together because I think it would be a fun project and it would help me learn what everything does. Something like this that's usable after I'm done sounds like I'd be able to tough it out through the frustration of working the kinks out. Of course I will probably have a ton of questions to ask on here

That's a lot of print time. So each set is roughly 1/3kg to make? So a little over $14 in materials and a lot of time. Okay, good to know. Thank you. And $35 is cheap! I've seen plastic part kits for around $100 and thought how in the hell am I going to afford starting out in this hobby to see if I like it? Haha.

Oh, that's a definite. I have no delusions about buying a kit and then cranking out printers for sale for a long time. I would rather know I am sure about what I'm doing and would be able to honestly and fairly offer support to any product I would put out. I was more thinking of making 3D prints to sell, if anything. I can worry about making hardware later on when I know what I'm doing more. Plus, I'm big on giving things away to friends and whatnot, so I can totally see myself printing up a bunch of parts and getting other people into it too while I learn myself.

So what would you suggest I start out with? A friend of mine builds things for a living, including doing fabrication. I gave him the BOM sheet @kellymc posted just to get an idea to see if he has any of that stuff. If he does, I was really thinking of building a Prusa rework just because it would be my cheapest option.

Each set of Rework parts I use is about 260 gr so not quite four sets from a kilo under best case. As for your build, I suggest a Rework for the reasons listed above, availability and support from the community and potentially your vendor. There are other Repraps as well (like the Wilson) or the Printrbot. As for the BOM kellymc posted that's a standard build. That build used Misumi parts so it's going to be a fair bit more expensive than using more generic parts. Here's the Rework entry in the Wiki with BOM, instructions, etc. [reprap.org]

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LittleMike
What do you mean by selling it as a name brand? Is that what people are doing? Making their own and then selling them at a profit? I didn't realize you can get a return on investment like that.

Printrbot is enough of a name brand and has a large enough online support community that you can potentially resell the assembled printer when you are done using it to recover some of your investment. Or, if you are into philanthropy, you can donate it to a local library or school.....

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vegasloki
Each set of Rework parts I use is about 260 gr so not quite four sets from a kilo under best case. As for your build, I suggest a Rework for the reasons listed above, availability and support from the community and potentially your vendor. There are other Repraps as well (like the Wilson) or the Printrbot. As for the BOM kellymc posted that's a standard build. That build used Misumi parts so it's going to be a fair bit more expensive than using more generic parts. Here's the Rework entry in the Wiki with BOM, instructions, etc. [reprap.org]

Aside from they being Misumi parts, it would still be the same parts from another brand, though, correct? I don't know if my friend deals in Misumi. I just gave him the BOM sheet because he asked what I was looking for. Generics are fine with me, as long as they work.

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vreihen

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LittleMike
What do you mean by selling it as a name brand? Is that what people are doing? Making their own and then selling them at a profit? I didn't realize you can get a return on investment like that.

Printrbot is enough of a name brand and has a large enough online support community that you can potentially resell the assembled printer when you are done using it to recover some of your investment. Or, if you are into philanthropy, you can donate it to a local library or school.....

Oh gotcha. So buy a "name brand" and I can sell it later. Understood.

Interesting find on the i3 rework, though keep in mind that the shipping on a 10kg printer (does that include the filament?) is close to $170 for US shipping.

Personally, if I had to do everything over again, I think I would have gone with the PrintrBot simple. The wooden kit is unassembled, giving me an idea how everything works, and I could always scavenge it to build an i3 down the road for the larger print surface (which was why I didn't buy one originally). At least going that route I would be printing things (fingers crossed) rather than troubleshooting still.

It sounds like you should be happy with an i3 kit or self-sourced project though, I think there is a lot of help for i3's available online as it seems to be a common design.

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Kurzaa
Interesting find on the i3 rework, though keep in mind that the shipping on a 10kg printer (does that include the filament?) is close to $170 for US shipping.

Personally, if I had to do everything over again, I think I would have gone with the PrintrBot simple. The wooden kit is unassembled, giving me an idea how everything works, and I could always scavenge it to build an i3 down the road for the larger print surface (which was why I didn't buy one originally). At least going that route I would be printing things (fingers crossed) rather than troubleshooting still.

It sounds like you should be happy with an i3 kit or self-sourced project though, I think there is a lot of help for i3's available online as it seems to be a common design.

Here's their shipping breakdown:

Airmail Shipping for United States (10-20 days): $170.00
DHL for USA (3-5 days) - Recommended: $98.65
Express Mail Shipping for United States (7-15 days): $169.75
SAL Shipping for United States (15-30 days): $94.00
Surface Shipping for United States (60-90 days): $45.50

So if you can stand to wait - only $45, or $98 for DHL. No way near $170. It also comes with the following:

1x pool of ABS filament, 1kg, 3mm
Polyimide Tape 33m x 10mm (Kapton tape)

So it almost sounds too good to be true.

They are able to offer that due to a couple of factors. First, the labor arbitrage, second, material and fab costs. There is a thread in the Prusa Mendel section of the forums with some users that bought the kit. The response seems to be positive.

Full disclosure, I've been selling mechanical kits (frames, rods, bearings, hardware, etc) for almost two years now. [stores.ebay.com] Recently I started on a full kit, quality components for around US$500 delivered. It's called the Baja (after one of our dogs) It's a mashup between an sgraber melamine frame changed to work with a Rework, the mrice Rework/Wilson extruder with herrringbone gears and a regular Rework i3. Heated bed, real hotends.com J Head, all US sourced material except the electronics. The electronics are what I'm waiting on now. Initially I was going to use a Brainwave but have since decided to use RAMPS instead. I got a sample from Shenzhen a few hours ago and will test in later today and burn it in for a few days on a machine. Fully documented with basic config files so someone can be up and printing in a short time. Open Hardware that complies with OHWA, sources on Github prior to the machine becoming available and the docs finalized. It will still be 3-4 weeks if all goes well with the electronics and I don't need to find another vendor. I've sold a lot of the frame kits and many have asked why I didn't provide a complete kit so this is a logical step.

In the meantime, the Replikeo looks like a good deal and if you are in the market now it could be a good option for you. My goal is to provide a better value, not necessarily a lower price in that there is support in the US from someone that has been printing for a few years now, quality components and easy to follow documentation.

Here's a pic of the wiring of the prototype. [flic.kr]

Dave

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vegasloki
Full disclosure, I've been selling mechanical kits (frames, rods, bearings, hardware, etc) for almost two years now.

Hey, I bought one of your melamine frames for this build. I've got all the mechanicals assembled and it seems really solid and square so far.

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vegasloki
They are able to offer that due to a couple of factors. First, the labor arbitrage, second, material and fab costs. There is a thread in the Prusa Mendel section of the forums with some users that bought the kit. The response seems to be positive.

Full disclosure, I've been selling mechanical kits (frames, rods, bearings, hardware, etc) for almost two years now. [stores.ebay.com] Recently I started on a full kit, quality components for around US$500 delivered. It's called the Baja (after one of our dogs) It's a mashup between an sgraber melamine frame changed to work with a Rework, the mrice Rework/Wilson extruder with herrringbone gears and a regular Rework i3. Heated bed, real hotends.com J Head, all US sourced material except the electronics. The electronics are what I'm waiting on now. Initially I was going to use a Brainwave but have since decided to use RAMPS instead. I got a sample from Shenzhen a few hours ago and will test in later today and burn it in for a few days on a machine. Fully documented with basic config files so someone can be up and printing in a short time. Open Hardware that complies with OHWA, sources on Github prior to the machine becoming available and the docs finalized. It will still be 3-4 weeks if all goes well with the electronics and I don't need to find another vendor. I've sold a lot of the frame kits and many have asked why I didn't provide a complete kit so this is a logical step.

In the meantime, the Replikeo looks like a good deal and if you are in the market now it could be a good option for you. My goal is to provide a better value, not necessarily a lower price in that there is support in the US from someone that has been printing for a few years now, quality components and easy to follow documentation.

Here's a pic of the wiring of the prototype. [flic.kr]

Dave

Dave, you make a good point about support. The Replikeo model may be cheap, but I imagine if I have any issues, I'll be hard-pressed to find help other than here or tinkering around. Your prices seem fair, but it's just a bit more than I'm looking to spend because I don't know how deep into this hobby I want to get. Another reason why I was looking to "try it out" on the cheap. I do wish you (continued) success, though!

A few questions - ABS vs PLA. I know ABS makes sturdier prints, but the fumes are toxic while PLA makes "softer" prints but is biodegradable (supposedly). What determines what I can print? Is it the hotend? In other words, if I want to try my hand at building an i3 Rework, will I be limited to one type or the other, or will I be able to print using both materials?

Also, would I be better off buying a kit like Dave's or a Printrbot for the support, or is it perfectly feasible to just wing it, source out parts, and build my own i3? Which is the more "economical" option?

Last question (for now haha) - LCD screens and SD card readers - do any of the above models support that? These printers aren't small and I want to be able to print things bigger than 4-4.5" (I know the Simple only does that size, but at least has an upgrade option for later). Anyway, I'd like to build this in a room other than my tiny office. I can hook a laptop up to it if necessary, but having the ability to take files from my desktop, throw them on an SD card, and pop that into the printer in the other room would be handy. Actually wireless would be the coolest thing ever, but so far I think the only one I've seen with that option is a Makerbot model and that was "in the works."

One of the uses I was considering for this printer is to make small figurines I design. Still working out the logistics. I make them by hand with Sculpey. I've looked into a few ways to 3D scan, but I think I can wrangle with Blender or something to get 3D versions either way. So I guess the question is - what is the best way for a "traditional artist" type to get into 3D printing. I'm not an engineer. I'm an IT guy for my day job and grew up with an art background. I guess I'm just an all-around geek that loves to play around with things, so I can learn a lot of these things, but I'm an expert in none. Haha.