New print surface material?

I bought this spool may be three month ago, its label says :
1.75mm PLA 3D Filament
Silver-1kg (N.W.)
Print temp 190-220°C ( this is standard temp on esun PLA spool, they should have added 20°C for this 'color')

Apart the adhesion difficulties, this is the first esun spool where I don't met with winding problems...

Do you offer custom size pieces? If not, how hard is it to cut down to the size we need?

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ElmoC
Do you offer custom size pieces? If not, how hard is it to cut down to the size we need?

Hi ElmoC - Yes custom sizes can be supplied, just send me a pm with your requirement - It can also be cut using a sharp blade and straight edge with repeated scoring and then break off.

Thanks for the information! It looks interesting and promising. Didn’t have any idea about it before. Looking forward to know more about it.

6 months on and still performing well. Had the occasional hot end crash but the material is holding up well.
Just needs a little clean every now and then, and to wait for the print to cool down to release the print.

Would highly recommend!

Would appreciate some advice from other users that have PrintBite and print Nylon.

Tried a Nylon test print today with a 60mm oval shape.

Prusa i3, auto bed leveling. Nozzle 245C and tried bed at both 65 and 110C, both gave same results.

Layer height 0.25mm

First layer went down perfect, just like the previous ABS print.

As soon as the second layer started, the complete oval print just peeled up from the PrintBite.

Bottom of layer 1 looks identical in texture to my ABS prints.

What am I doing wrong ?

Hi DaveOB - Nylon usually requires significantly higher temps than 245 for good adhesion between layers and to the bed. Also make sure it is dry. Nylon is well tested on PrintBite so id suggest upping your nozzle temps to around 260/270 depending on your setup.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2016 03:16PM by Mutley3D.

Thanks Mutley.
Will give it a try in the morning and report back.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2016 03:43PM by DaveOB.

OK. Having done a load of extra reading last night, it seems that nylon has a great ability to absorb moisture.

This, together with the fact that I am trying to print with weed-whacker line, is most likely the source of the problems that I am having ( = problems created by myself, not by PrintBite ).

I have resolved to go purchase some reputable nylon filament, and then ensure it is correctly dehumidified before trying to print again.

My experiences with PrintBite in the past have, due to the nature of the prints that I do, been limited to ABS. And I must say that I have not had a bad print caused by poor adhesion in the months that I have been using it.

I still strongly recommend, and believe in, PrintBite.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2016 02:09PM by DaveOB.

Aha DaveOB yes this does sound like an issue with the (improvised) filament being used. there is no telling what is in the weedwhacker line, or what condition it is in. Most likely it wont be virgin material either (ie made from recycled material).

Several users have independently verified use of different Nylons on PrintBite including the guys at 3dfilaprint.com and here on [www.youtube.com] among others.

Will be good to hear how you get on once you have a go with some real nylon filament.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2016 09:01PM by Mutley3D.

Got my Printbite sheet in the mail (finally), and stuck it down. I've been so keen to try it, based on the reviews I've seen on here.

For those thinking about it, it's easy to cut with a jigsaw. Just think of fibreglass sheet and you've got a good idea of what it's like to work with. I'm pretty sure it's some kind of fibreglass. I was able to cut some complex curves to exactly match my Delta bed, and drill holes in it easily. Just be sure to have a vacuum running so you don't breathe the fibres.

I've printed a part on the sheet using ABS, which seemed to work OK, but there was a bit of peeling.

My previous experience with ABS is mainly with a PEI sheet on my other printer, and ABS normally sticks like glue to that sheet. You have to pry it up after a print, hot or cold. The sweet spot to removing it is about 40 degrees. However with PrintBite, the ABS didn't really seem to be all that stuck down, despite trying the following formula:

Nozzle: 250 degrees
Bed: 105 to 115 degrees (tried 105, 110 and 115 degrees)
Layer height: 0.2 - 0.3mm
Nozzle width: 0.4mm
First layer width: 0.6mm
First layer speed: 23mm/s, also tried 14mm/s
Squish: Lots of squish, also tried minimal squish

I also tried rubbing a small part of the bed with 400 grit sandpaper, which really works well on a PEI sheet, but it didn't seem to do anything to the printbite.

On my PEI sheet, the plastic sticks right from the moment the plastic touches the bed, whereas with printbite it takes a couple of mm of travel. The parts I mainly print have lots of retractions on the first layer. On PEI, these work really well. On Printbite, these rapid extrusions and retractions just aren't reliable.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a good formula for ABS?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2016 10:10AM by nebbian.

Nebbian

Good to see you have put down your details wrt first layer, I have some suggestions based on what I use
Nozzle: 250 is probably at the upper end of hot, i use 245, but 250 shouldnt be a problem, getting a good thorough melt is objective
Bed: Set to 120 - you probably need just a little more heat on the bed. Perhaps also try cover the bed surface during heatup with piece of carboard or similar. so the whole surface gets to full temp.
Layer height: I use 0.3
Nozzle Width: All my machines are 0.4
First layer width: try 0.4, I use a width equal to nozzle diameter - wider than nozzle width combined with excess squish will lead to lumpy edges, where lift may start easier.
First layer speed: I use 40mms but I wouldnt have thought slower would be detrimental
Squish: Get the height right, not too much squish - when you squish, especially with wider first layer you will get excess lumpy plastic pushed out to the sides, lift will start from these spots. Akin to glass starting to crack from a small crack on the edge of the glass, ie weak point of adhesion

If you sand the PB it wont help in my experience.
Depending on your ABS possibly a small brim might help, although really we dont want to be using brims, and I dont use brims.
HTH

Edit: IF after the above you still have issues with your ABS you can seed the bed with a very very weak ABS/Acetone solution, paint it on when cold, then clean the bed again with just acetone and clean cloth/kitchen towel. OR wet a kitchen towel with acetone, drop a short piece of skirt onto the bed and wipe around, and then clean again with just acetone kitchen towel. This should sort you out good and proper. Note that you will only have to do this once! This will greatly increase adhesion with ABS and parts will still self release if not straight away, after the first couple of prints/heat cycles

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2016 02:00PM by Mutley3D.

I have to use a bed temperature of about 125°C for ABS and I have to lower the nozzle temperature to about 240°C, but it also depends on the material. I had one ABS filament which printed fine with only 110°C bed temperature.
Also take care of your cooling. If it is too strong you will get in trouble.
It seems that I can soon test a complete new material and I am curious how PrintBite will perform with it.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

I wouldn't reccommend to use any cooling with ABS as you will cool the bed and the part will lift. ABS materials dont need print cooling.

Quote

It seems that I can soon test a complete new material and I am curious how PrintBite will perform with it.

Sounds interesting, what are you getting?

Mutley3D I was talking about the nozzle cooling which is needed and may influence the bed so I use a protective guard to reduce the air flow especially at my older machine.
I will get an example of Algix Dura for testing purpose.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Quote
Mutley3D
Edit: IF after the above you still have issues with your ABS you can seed the bed with a very very weak ABS/Acetone solution, paint it on when cold, then clean the bed again with just acetone and clean cloth/kitchen towel. OR wet a kitchen towel with acetone, drop a short piece of skirt onto the bed and wipe around, and then clean again with just acetone kitchen towel. This should sort you out good and proper. Note that you will only have to do this once! This will greatly increase adhesion with ABS and parts will still self release if not straight away, after the first couple of prints/heat cycles

Thanks for the advice.

I made up a very weak mix of ABS in acetone, and painted it on while cold. Waited for a bit, then cleaned it off with acetone. Tried a print, and it didn't adhere very well.

Then I tried painting the ABS mix on while hot, and not bother removing it. Booyah, perfect adhesion, just as you might expect. What I didn't expect, was that the next ten prints on the exact same spot, without slopping more goop on, seemed to stick quite well also. Looking at the surface under a light, it's clear where the ABS slop is, and where it's been lifted off by the first print. Once that first print was lifted off, new prints still stuck just as well as the one with the slurry underneath it. It's almost as if the ABS/Acetone mix applied hot, primed the surface. Also, every successive print for the next 5 prints, seemed to stick a bit better than the last. I don't understand what's going on here, but then again chemistry was never my strong point. Note, the adhesion is not as strong as ABS on PEI, but it's OK.

So we're in business! Thanks for the advice, I'll keep a close eye on it and do a comparison between PrintBite and PEI after I've had a good chance to explore all the edge cases.


P.S. A layer fan really helps with small detail features in ABS, provided that it's very weak (ie just above the point at which it can't turn on by itself). Without the fan, the plastic will often curl upwards slightly, and the nozzle just pushes around a glob of plastic that never has a chance to cool. With a weak layer fan, you end up solidifying those layers, so new layers print flat. This is especially visible in overhangs -- without the fan you can see the layers curl up, with the fan it stays locked where it should. Try printing Marvin in ABS and you'll see what I mean.

Nebbian, It might have been that your mix was too weak, and the second coat did the trick. Possibly something to do with the ABS you have too, or your surface temp is just slightly under optimal due to bed setup. It is rare to need to take this step, but its working so thats what counts. In any case it should continue to work well. When you get ABS adhered correctly it cannot be removed until the bed has cooled off at least a bit. Every machine/user/settings combo is different and so there will always be variability. Personally I found PEI and PB to be on par with each other when it came to ABS, whilst a wider range of materials stuck to the PB than PEI during my testing and the PEI wouldnt alsways self release. Of course different blends/colours/makes of ABS will introduce more variability aswell.

Quote
Mutley3D
When you get ABS adhered correctly it cannot be removed until the bed has cooled off at least a bit.

Interesting. This was (and is) not the case with me, the print could be easily pulled off the bed while hot. I'll play around some more with different temperatures of nozzle and heatbed.

I have many different brands and colours of ABS available to me, I've already tried three on that bed but will try some more.

Thanks for the ideas.

Quote
nebbian

Quote
Mutley3D
When you get ABS adhered correctly it cannot be removed until the bed has cooled off at least a bit.

Interesting. This was (and is) not the case with me, the print could be easily pulled off the bed while hot. I'll play around some more with different temperatures of nozzle and heatbed.

I have many different brands and colours of ABS available to me, I've already tried three on that bed but will try some more.

Thanks for the ideas.

OK you have something not quite right then, I would suspect based on all your earlier comments that you are not getting full surface temp. This would explain everything!

If the bed is not adhered properly, or has air trapped, you wont get sufficient heat conducting into the PrintBite surface. I presume it is adhered and not just clipped in place?

Possibly if your ABS fan is running, it may be blowing more than you might be thinking so turn this off too for the time being if it is on.

Based on my experience, and your comments, my money is on lack of bed temp. When PrintBite is "switched on" you will not be removing ABS parts until cooldown! On my machine, during cool down, when the parts self release with a very audible "crack", they actually jump or shift a small distance on the bed.

Thermistor attached underside is going to read higher than your true top surface temp. hence 120c.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2016 12:54AM by Mutley3D.

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Mutley3D
Thermistor attached underside is going to read higher than your true top surface temp. hence 120c.

That is why I use 125°C and even a little bit more, because the top of the PrintBite is mostly 10°C colder. Maybe this is also caused by a wrong thernistor settings, but I also got this offset independently from the temperature.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Can anyone give me some good temperature settings for PLA?

Strangely enough the Printbite PDF doesn't have any suggestions for bed temperatures for common filament types.

Thanks in advance

Quote
nebbian
Can anyone give me some good temperature settings for PLA?

Strangely enough the Printbite PDF doesn't have any suggestions for bed temperatures for common filament types.

Thanks in advance

The instructions indicate that you should use temps 10-20 degrees above what you would normally use. For PLA try using a slightly warmer temp than you would normally use.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2016 06:23AM by Mutley3D.

Thanks Mutley3D. Is 10-20 degrees more than normal, compared to plain glass, glass with glue stick, glass with blue tape, aluminium heatbed, or what?

I'm just after a known good set of numbers. Thanks in advance

You will have to test it on your own as the correct temperature settings highly depends on your printer and setup. Normally you don't measure the surface temperature so you have an individual temperature offset.
For PLA it is probably something about 60°C.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Nebbian, the general rule of thumb is to try 10-20 degrees above what is recommended by the manufacturer of the filament, which is usually indicated on the label attached to the spool. This goes for both Bed and Nozzle temps

The temp that actually works for you will vary due to various factors including ambient temp, thermistor accuracy, heatbed efficiency and so forth. In some rare cases if the machine is not well calibrated you may need to exceed this. Some examples are listed below to guide you.

ABS: Bed 115-125c Nozzle 240-250
PLA: Bed 60-80c Nozzle 220-230
Nylons: Bed 60-100c Nozzle 245-270
PET: Bed 60-90c Nozzle 235-255
PCTPE: Bed 70-90c Nozzle 240-260
Bridge/Alloy910: Bed 65-85c Nozzle 250-270
etc.

Some flexible filaments are an exception to this rule and should be used with slightly cooler bed temps to aid removal as they may adhere a little more than usual.

Quote
Mutley3D
Some examples are listed below to guide you.

ABS: Bed 115-125c Nozzle 240-250
PLA: Bed 60-80c Nozzle 220-230
Nylons: Bed 60-100c Nozzle 245-270
PET: Bed 60-90c Nozzle 235-255
PCTPE: Bed 70-90c Nozzle 240-260
Bridge/Alloy910: Bed 65-85c Nozzle 250-270
etc.

Some flexible filaments are an exception to this rule and should be used with slightly cooler bed temps to aid removal as they may adhere a little more than usual.

Perfect! Many thanks for the information. It really helps.

this stuff sounds basically like PEI. is it?
if not what makes it better then PEI?

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It is not PEI, its a composite material as nylon can adhere to it, where nylon has no interaction with PEI at all.

Mutley3D, can this be used on printers that probe the bed with a nozzle heated to print temps?