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Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.

Posted by DjDemonD 
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
May 14, 2019 10:21AM
Okay, so I have a bit of a request. I really do prefer the Orion module over any other Z-Probe however it is kind of hard to setup with dual hotends. I was looking at the E3D Chimera and see the solution for that but I already have a few E3D V6 hotends lying around that I could pair into a dual bowden setup so I hate spending the extra money on a Chimera when I can use what I already have.

What would be really nice is having this (Orion printed parts) modified so that there are two joined together into one piece so that two V6 hotends could be installed side by side. Then, that single piece would have an option to screw it to a mounting plate to attach to an X-Carriage.

Something like this except with the Orion holder where the two bowden holes are. You could make the left side a dummy holder that doesn't need an Orion module in it or you could sell a blank Orion PCB to save on redesigning the shape to account for the thickness difference without the module (or just put shims in place of the PCcool smiley. The Top side could be the side that gets hard mounted to the X-Carriage plate so that the other side with the Orion Module isn't bound so it won't affect sensing.

Something like this:



And this:




If my images don't appear above, here are links to them:

Dual Orion Mount Bottom

Dual Orion Mount Top

I might be over thinking this as I could probably just screw two of these to a plate but don't have the parts on hand to try this so I was asking here.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2019 10:24AM by p40whk.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
May 15, 2019 06:44AM
Hi,

I'm interested in underbed piezo leveling and have some questions.
first some Infos for you.
Corexy with 2 Z motors, duet 2 wifi. The bed is 250 x 250mm and quite heavy. 4 point mount with M3 screws.

I found the files from dj on thingiverse.

The bed stands on the piezo Discs? How much weight could 4 Discs handle? Or do i have to add some springs?
what would i need to buy?

Thanks and best regards, Flo
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
May 15, 2019 01:11PM
I have my bed standing on the Andromeda sensors, which is a little different.

Piezo discs are typically a thin brass substrate, which will stand up to a *reasonable* amount of force fairly well. The discs measure a change in force, and are (properly mounted) quite resilient. If you're mounting your bed on M3 screws, you'll probably be fine. If not, well the discs are cheap. Springs to relieve strain won't make the sensors worse, in theory, though if they allow the bed to vibrate during Z motion, you will have some problems with false triggering events.


MBot3D Printer
MakerBot clone Kit from Amazon
Added heated bed.

Leadscrew self-built printer (in progress)
Duet Wifi, Precision Piezo parts
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
May 26, 2019 09:14PM
I'm getting around .04, .05 deviation on my Rostock v2 delta.
Any ideas what I can do to get that down to .01, or .02? I already set the nozzle z offset to .01 down from .1, and that brought the usual deviation from .06 to .04
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
May 26, 2019 10:06PM
I am not familiar with delta machines, but I don't believe an offset comes into pay during a leveling procedure or testing deviation on a delta any different than a CoreXY or Cartesian.
Deviation tests the consistence of the probe response. IE, it probes and sets that to 0 then probes repeatedly and compares all the results to the first one and calculates the deviation from those numbers.IE, how many steps different + or - each probe is to get a response.
The offset has nothing to do with it. When the probe determine Z=0, the offset adjusts that to compensate for the probe sensitivity, deformation of the bed, and delay of the system.
If the offset is 0.1, 0.1 is added to the probe Z=0 position so in effect Z=0 occurs 0.1mm from when the probe says it is at 0. within the deviation window.
IE, G0 Z0 then sets the nozzle at probe=0 + 0.1
enter a large positive # for offset, home Z then enter G0 Z0 and you should see the nozzle move to the offset height.The program (Repetier or whatever) will show Z=0.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2019 10:15PM by ruggb.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
May 27, 2019 04:52AM
Is that deviation across the bed or deviation in one place? What height do you probe from?

Idris


{Precision Piezo} Accurate, repeatable, versatile z-probe plus piezo discs, endstop cables, pt100, 50w heaters.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
May 29, 2019 02:23PM
Are there any dimensional drawings of the Orion Screw Top printed part? I'm trying to design a mount for my Hypercube Evolution and would prefer actual dimensions of everything rather than trust my measuring talents!
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
May 29, 2019 04:38PM
deviation is a measure of the probe performance/consistency. It is probed in one place. My probe is the nozzle itself and I think it retracts 10mm but Not sure exactly. I am not in front of it to check. probing speed also has an effect and I am not sure what mine is either, but it is not as slow as the default - actually probably 2x.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2019 04:42PM by ruggb.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 02, 2019 02:49PM
Quote
Moriquendi
Is that deviation across the bed or deviation in one place? What height do you probe from?

Idris


That is deviation across the bed, using the least squares algorithm from dc42's RepRapFirmware fork. I probe from 5mm @ 4mm/s, then on second repetition from about 1mm @ 4mm/s
In firmware it's taking the average between the 1st and 2nd probes. I actually haven't tested repeatability/deviation in a single spot yet. Perhaps that would be the next course of action. By .01 offset, I mean the activation offset of when the nozzle touches the bed vs when the SIG line is triggered. Here's my settings again:
Z_PROBE_ON_HIGH=false
ENDSTOP_Z_MIN_PULLUP=true
ENDSTOP_Z_MIN_INVERTING=true
ENDSTOP_Z_MIN=true
Z_PROBE_REPETITIONS=2
Z_PROBE_SPEED=4
Z_PROBE_WAIT_BEFORE_TEST=330
Z_PROBE_DELAY=330
Z_PROBE_HEIGHT=-0.01

On the reports of DjDemonD, usually a piezo probe activates some short distance (.1-.2mm) after the nozzle has touched the bed, leading to negative offset. I merely noticed this works better with a smaller value on my machine.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2019 08:41PM by CodeBuster.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 02, 2019 10:16PM
Marlin does not operate as you described for Repetier.
There is also a problem with the way Repetier-Host handles an offset with Marlin.
There is also 2.1.4 that was just released. I downloaded it 10 min ago.
It may have fixed the issue that I submitted. I was told it was on his todo list.
So if you update, you may have to start this scenario all over again.

M420 is ABL and produces a matrix that is factored into the gcode.
It probes across the bed depending on your configuration.
Mine is 3 points. With a MIC6 bed it is very flat so I figure more is a waste of time.

M48 is repeatability. It produces a deviation and is done at one point on the bed. I do it in the center.
my std deviation is 0.003448
The piezo does trigger some time AFTER the nozzle hits the bed. If you want to get to a Z=0 you need a POSITIVE offset.
Marlin does not have a Z_PROBE_HEIGHT parameter so I don't know how that factors in.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 03, 2019 12:14PM
Quote
ruggb
Marlin does not have a Z_PROBE_HEIGHT parameter so I don't know how that factors in.

?

http://marlinfw.org/docs/gcode/M851.html

If you read the PP docs and instructions it tells you to in fact make the offset POSITVE.

6 significant figures on this kind of data is spurious. think about the number that you are representing. anything signifying less than 0.01mm is just folly.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2019 12:15PM by sinned.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 03, 2019 03:07PM
just quoting what was reported.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 03, 2019 03:43PM
Greetings.

I've used my Precision Piezo Orion successfully for 6 months. I've recently changed many parts on my RailCore Y-carriage, and as I attempt to re-commission the printer, The Orion is not triggering on Homing Z. It works fine just touching the PCB, but I have to hit the POWER OFF switch when I attempt to home for real as the bed continues to climb and not trigger. I have a short video on YouTube showing my issue. I have made no config changes one the Duet config.g between the time it was working, and now.

I'd assume this has something to do with the ability of the board to flex against the lower unit. The lower unit did not change as part of my Y-carriage changes.

Any guidance would be appreciated. I did also post this as a support email to the Precision Piezo web site.

Thanks,

John

[www.youtube.com]
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 03, 2019 03:53PM
that is the problem with changes.
if u are touching your board and it triggers, I guess the circuit is working, assuming your touch isn't hitting the circuits.
What happens when you touch the nozzle?
If it doesn't work or takes too much of a touch then it sounds like your mechanism is a little too tight.
If it responds with a reasonable touch, the homing speed might be a little too slow.

I had a delay in mine long ago but do not any more. My delay just delayed Z home so XY movement could settle.
I am unaware of how other delays work, but I guess that could be causing an issue.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 03, 2019 05:03PM
Quote
ruggb
that is the problem with changes.

Yeah, I know. smiling smiley


Quote
ruggb
if u are touching your board and it triggers, I guess the circuit is working, assuming your touch isn't hitting the circuits..

That is my thought as well, but posting here in case it is possible there is still some board issue that I'm missing.

Quote
ruggb
What happens when you touch the nozzle?
If it doesn't work or takes too much of a touch then it sounds like your mechanism is a little too tight.
If it responds with a reasonable touch, the homing speed might be a little too slow. .

I need to touch the nozzle with a lot more force than was required before I made my changes. I am guessing the PCB sandwich is, perhaps, too tight, but I did loosen things without any change in behavior. Maybe I need to loosen more. I don't think the speed should be an issue as I'm running the Z homing at the same speed I used before the Y carriage changes.

Thanks for your reply.

John
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 03, 2019 06:21PM
my speed is double what Marlin sets it at. The faster tap produces a better signal.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 05, 2019 12:29AM
Short of reading 63 pages of messages ... quick question please.
My old printer used a z endstop in addition to a BLtouch. The BLtouch was only used to map the bed. In the new printer there is no separate z endstop.
When a print is started, the hot end normally heats up and then the printhead is homed. Will any bits hanging off the nozzle affect where the printer thinks that z 0 is ? Is there a special procedure for the Orion sensor to establish z 0 ? I understand that for bed mapping the nozzle is heated up to below oozing temperature, the nozzle is cleaned and then the surface is mapped but it would be a real PITA to have to do that before every print.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 05, 2019 03:12AM
Quote
jens53
Short of reading 63 pages of messages ... quick question please.
My old printer used a z endstop in addition to a BLtouch. The BLtouch was only used to map the bed. In the new printer there is no separate z endstop.
When a print is started, the hot end normally heats up and then the printhead is homed. Will any bits hanging off the nozzle affect where the printer thinks that z 0 is ? Is there a special procedure for the Orion sensor to establish z 0 ? I understand that for bed mapping the nozzle is heated up to below oozing temperature, the nozzle is cleaned and then the surface is mapped but it would be a real PITA to have to do that before every print.

The best solution would be to add a retract in the end script of your Gcode so the crap isn't hanging out of your nozzle. Then, after that you print a skirt around the object when starting a print to prime the nozzle. I use an inductive proximity sensor and when I start a print I first move the print head to the absolute Z0 in the top-right corner of the bed to remove any residual dr00p that came out while heating and probing (I use a bowden tube so when probing up and down, it flexes the filament inside a little bit causing tiny pressure in the hotend resulting in tiny ooze).

Then from the Z0 it moves into the place where it starts a print and while it's doing that it also moves up. Resulting in a clean print with a properly primed nozzle.

Oh, and you do the G28 and G29 only after heating up the nozzle so the ooze that does come out is supposed to be soft from contact heat.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2019 03:13AM by Ohmarinus.


http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 05, 2019 10:36AM
Quote
jens53
When a print is started, the hot end normally heats up and then the printhead is homed. Will any bits hanging off the nozzle affect where the printer thinks that z 0 is ? Is there a special procedure for the Orion sensor to establish z 0 ? I understand that for bed mapping the nozzle is heated up to below oozing temperature, the nozzle is cleaned and then the surface is mapped but it would be a real PITA to have to do that before every print.

This is part of the reason for heating the hotend before probing. With the nozzle hot, any plastic on it will squish when probing, and not have significant effect on the measurement. Ceftainly if there's hard plastic under the nozzle, that will have an effect. It's best to start with a clean nozzle whenever possible.

Similarly, anything on the bed will have an effect, but that's unavoidable with any kind of probe.


MBot3D Printer
MakerBot clone Kit from Amazon
Added heated bed.

Leadscrew self-built printer (in progress)
Duet Wifi, Precision Piezo parts
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 05, 2019 11:24AM
Thanks for the info. I do retract (1.5 mm) at the end of a print but despite that, I get several inches of ooze. Usually about an inch between finishing the print and cool-down. I get another inch or two on warm-up for a new print. I use PETG, hence the filament drooling. I also print a skirt to prime. My printer is also a Bowden tube printer.
Seems like I need to keep my procedures exactly as they are.

Thanks !
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 05, 2019 12:27PM
Quote
jens53
Thanks for the info. I do retract (1.5 mm) at the end of a print but despite that, I get several inches of ooze. Usually about an inch between finishing the print and cool-down. I get another inch or two on warm-up for a new print. I use PETG, hence the filament drooling. I also print a skirt to prime. My printer is also a Bowden tube printer.
Seems like I need to keep my procedures exactly as they are.

Thanks !

I think I retract about 5mm! Haha. That would be a good amount to try if you use a bowden cable.


http://www.marinusdebeer.nl/
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 05, 2019 12:35PM
I can not retract more than 2 mm without risking plugging up the works. I use a full metal hot end and a titanium heat break which causes a sharp drop in temperature between the cod section of the hot end and the hot section. If I get the soft and squishy part of the filament into the cold section, it has a tendency to stick to the heat break which plugs up things.
Now I must admit that this rule is for standard retract movements during the print. I have not tried to do a large retract at the end of a print (yeah, I am chicken ... it's a pain to have to take everything apart).
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 05, 2019 04:01PM
umm, why not just READ the installation instructions? it's all covered in there with pretty pictures too... just saying
don't heat more than 130 for probing. excessive retracts are not necessary

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2019 04:03PM by sinned.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 05, 2019 06:44PM
Quote
sinned
umm, why not just READ the installation instructions? it's all covered in there with pretty pictures too... just saying
don't heat more than 130 for probing. excessive retracts are not necessary

Ummmm ... yeah but that would be depriving you of telling me to RTFM and I wouldn't want o do that smiling smiley
BTW, if you READ my original post asking about this, you would have noticed that I did indeed read the manual and that I knew about setting the nozzle temp below oozing temp (130 for PLA, more for other filaments). I do not recall seeing anything in the instructions about procedures not related to mapping the bed (probing) ... of course I could be wrong about that in which case I sincerely apologize.
In any event, I did not see anything in the instructions about normal homing of the print head. Do you go to 130 every time you start a print job, wait until the printhead is at that temperature, clean the printhead then home then stop to heat the printhead some more and then proceed to do the print? This would not be a satisfactory way to do things as a lot of times a print is started remotely.
As it turns out, my normal start procedure is completely adequate and thank you again Ohmarinus and SupraGuy for confirming.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 06, 2019 12:16AM
On a different note, I have used [www.thingiverse.com] to mount the new Orion sensor to my Creality CR10 with good success. I am wondering if anybody has successfully used an openly available design for a print cooling system with that mount.

Edit: the thingiverse link leads to thing 3001060

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2019 01:06AM by jens53.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 06, 2019 06:44AM
Quote
jens53
In any event, I did not see anything in the instructions about normal homing of the print head. Do you go to 130 every time you start a print job, wait until the printhead is at that temperature, clean the printhead then home then stop to heat the printhead some more and then proceed to do the print? This would not be a satisfactory way to do things as a lot of times a print is started remotely.

If it is an option for you, then you can also use the probe in combination with traditional Z endstops. If you do so you obviously do not have to wait for nozzle heat up every time you home Z. I understand this is not desirable for everyone but it can definitely be done, I run my printer with dual Z endstops and a piezo probe.
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 13, 2019 08:11AM
Anyone using the Anycubic Mega-S with the Orion? If so, where did you make the connection to the printer?
Re: Precision Piezo Z-probe Now available.
June 13, 2019 08:35AM
Quote
Amegatek
Anyone using the Anycubic Mega-S with the Orion? If so, where did you make the connection to the printer?

Have a look at the instructions here: [www.thingiverse.com]
They are for a different piezo mount but much of it should be applicable to the Orion as well I believe.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2019 09:06AM by kulfuerst.
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