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Re: Folger Tech Kossel Delta 2020 Full 3D Printer Kit w/Auto-Level October 31, 2015 08:25PM |
Folger Tech Kossel Mod: DIY adjustable hotbed mount for manual bed leveling
I hate this z-probe. Tried both - Marlin and Repetier. They calibrate, but I don't like the final results.
So, I decided to make my own adjustable hotbed mount using spare screws from printer kit (3 M3x25, 3 M3x15, 3 Nylock M3 nuts, 3 washers and 3 M3 t-nuts for 2020 extruded profile), simple sketchup-made mount (printed using PETG) and 3 springs that I found in $4 Homedepot spring kit.
It's on Thingiverse now: [www.thingiverse.com]
It took only 15 minutes to calibrate the installed bed with very high precision (0.02mm).
Tip: forget about paper test - it is not accurate enough! Use drill bit - roll it under the hotend tip close to the screw and adjust the screw so the drillbit will roll just slightly touching the tip.
Finally, I dismounted the probe and will never use it again... hardware calibration rules.
PS: to avoid mess with slicer and make smooth transition during printing from hex-nut hole to M3 I designed the thin wall, so short bridges over hex-nut hole will do the job pretty well. You need just puncture this thin wall using small screwdriver before inserting M3x25 screw.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2015 10:09PM by paul_delta.
I hate this z-probe. Tried both - Marlin and Repetier. They calibrate, but I don't like the final results.
So, I decided to make my own adjustable hotbed mount using spare screws from printer kit (3 M3x25, 3 M3x15, 3 Nylock M3 nuts, 3 washers and 3 M3 t-nuts for 2020 extruded profile), simple sketchup-made mount (printed using PETG) and 3 springs that I found in $4 Homedepot spring kit.
It's on Thingiverse now: [www.thingiverse.com]
It took only 15 minutes to calibrate the installed bed with very high precision (0.02mm).
Tip: forget about paper test - it is not accurate enough! Use drill bit - roll it under the hotend tip close to the screw and adjust the screw so the drillbit will roll just slightly touching the tip.
Finally, I dismounted the probe and will never use it again... hardware calibration rules.
PS: to avoid mess with slicer and make smooth transition during printing from hex-nut hole to M3 I designed the thin wall, so short bridges over hex-nut hole will do the job pretty well. You need just puncture this thin wall using small screwdriver before inserting M3x25 screw.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2015 10:09PM by paul_delta.
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Re: Folger Tech Kossel Delta 2020 Full 3D Printer Kit w/Auto-Level October 31, 2015 08:33PM |
FolgerTech Kossel Mod: Fan upgrade
This fan housing prevents fan from blowing to the extruder's hot end area. This way the extruder heatsink stays cooler and the tip temperature is much stable without unneeded airflow.
Just put this sleeve between the fan and original fan mount.
It's on Thingiverse now: [www.thingiverse.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2015 08:34PM by paul_delta.
This fan housing prevents fan from blowing to the extruder's hot end area. This way the extruder heatsink stays cooler and the tip temperature is much stable without unneeded airflow.
Just put this sleeve between the fan and original fan mount.
It's on Thingiverse now: [www.thingiverse.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2015 08:34PM by paul_delta.
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Re: Folger Tech Kossel Delta 2020 Full 3D Printer Kit w/Auto-Level November 01, 2015 11:32AM |
Quote
Koenig
Quote
paul_delta
Tip: forget about paper test - it is not accurate enough! Use drill bit - roll it under the hotend tip close to the screw and adjust the screw so the drillbit will roll just slightly touching the tip.
Don't say that, I just people put to much into it.
The paper test is just a feeler, what you want to do to get it 99.9% right is: finetuning after the paper test.
But then again all calibration counts on a totally flat bed that is absolutely perpendicular to the towers.
Bed leveling is another matter for that you can use screws like the ones you have done, or a probe to correct it in firmware.
Making sure that you have a bed that is perfectly level should be done before any calibration.
Paper has long been the defacto tool in almost all industries for measuring the gap between two objects. As a mechanic who worked with points and condenser systems, I used a dollar bill as the proper gauge distance to create the right air gap for optimum power. Standard 80 lb paper is .0055 thick, out of the package, every package. So when paper is used and the nozzle is pinching the paper, the tip should be .0055ish to the bed. You cannot much more accurate then that, 10 sheets for a penny. I dare you, absolutely double dog dare you to go to Harbor Freight and buy me a box of straight drill bits. Drill bits are not precise enough to be used as a measuring device regardless of the quality of the bit simply due to the manufacturing process. If you truly wanted to measure this in the correct manner, then you would use feeler gauges; however, tight quarters, heated beds and ease of use makes paper the way to test.
Also, unless you are removing the bed after a print, swapping beds out for one another or using FSR's for adjusting the tip to the minute variations that exist on a heated surface after they have been vigorously heated from room temperature, then the bed should be set it and forget it and your focus should be on the hotend.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2015 11:46AM by thevisad.
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Re: Folger Tech Kossel Delta 2020 Full 3D Printer Kit w/Auto-Level November 01, 2015 12:20PM |
Quote
thevisad
Paper has long been the defacto tool in almost all industries for measuring the gap between two objects. As a mechanic who worked with points and condenser systems, I used a dollar bill as the proper gauge distance to create the right air gap for optimum power. Standard 80 lb paper is .0055 thick, out of the package, every package. So when paper is used and the nozzle is pinching the paper, the tip should be .0055ish to the bed. You cannot much more accurate then that, 10 sheets for a penny. I dare you, absolutely double dog dare you to go to Harbor Freight and buy me a box of straight drill bits. Drill bits are not precise enough to be used as a measuring device regardless of the quality of the bit simply due to the manufacturing process. If you truly wanted to measure this in the correct manner, then you would use feeler gauges; however, tight quarters, heated beds and ease of use makes paper the way to test.
Also, unless you are removing the bed after a print, swapping beds out for one another or using FSR's for adjusting the tip to the minute variations that exist on a heated surface after they have been vigorously heated from room temperature, then the bed should be set it and forget it and your focus should be on the hotend.
]
So many men so many minds. With paper test It's very hard to get accurate calibration. Even more - for delta this is completely wrong way, because the chances to crash the head are very high - there is no safety room. Now you have an airgap, second later you have unneeded deformation of whole system. The drillbits give you a room to work, they have zero deformation under tip pressure and precise enough - I measured couple of them with calipers - the opposite end of drill bits were always pretty accurate and round even cheap drill bits from HarborTools. I use round end of drill bit, the straighteness of rod in this case doesn't play a role because of simple geometry. So, I highly recommend to try this way. But I understand that "paper as a tool" traditions is a kind of religion and I respect religious people
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2015 12:20PM by paul_delta.
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Re: Folger Tech Kossel Delta 2020 Full 3D Printer Kit w/Auto-Level November 01, 2015 12:47PM |
Quote
paul_delta
Quote
thevisad
So many men so many minds. With paper test It's very hard to get accurate calibration. Even more - for delta this is completely wrong way, because the chances to crash the head are very high - there is no safety room. Now you have an airgap, second later you have unneeded deformation of whole system. The drillbits give you a room to work, they have zero deformation under tip pressure and precise enough - I measured couple of them with calipers - the opposite end of drill bits were always pretty accurate and round even cheap drill bits from HarborTools. I use round end of drill bit, the straighteness of rod in this case doesn't play a role because of simple geometry. So, I highly recommend to try this way. But I understand that "paper as a tool" traditions is a kind of religion and I respect religious people
The deformation of the paper is what makes it a good way of doing this, because you want it to pinch the paper but not clamp it down, it should move both backwards and forward with some resistance but not shred or fold, how do you distinguish that difference with a drill bit?
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Re: Folger Tech Kossel Delta 2020 Full 3D Printer Kit w/Auto-Level November 01, 2015 12:55PM |
Quote
Koenig
Quote
paul_delta
Quote
thevisad
So many men so many minds. With paper test It's very hard to get accurate calibration. Even more - for delta this is completely wrong way, because the chances to crash the head are very high - there is no safety room. Now you have an airgap, second later you have unneeded deformation of whole system. The drillbits give you a room to work, they have zero deformation under tip pressure and precise enough - I measured couple of them with calipers - the opposite end of drill bits were always pretty accurate and round even cheap drill bits from HarborTools. I use round end of drill bit, the straighteness of rod in this case doesn't play a role because of simple geometry. So, I highly recommend to try this way. But I understand that "paper as a tool" traditions is a kind of religion and I respect religious people
The deformation of the paper is what makes it a good way of doing this, because you want it to pinch the paper but not clamp it down, it should move both backwards and forward with some resistance but not shred or fold, how do you distinguish that difference with a drill bit?
Just try, OK? You will see the difference in gradations/feeling.
PS: of course the drill bit must be small enough - 1.5mm-3mm max. With 10mm drill bit there is a chance to get non-symmetrical (oval) end.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2015 12:59PM by paul_delta.
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Re: Folger Tech Kossel Delta 2020 Full 3D Printer Kit w/Auto-Level November 01, 2015 01:00PM |
Quote
paul_delta
Quote
thevisad
Paper has long been the defacto tool in almost all industries for measuring the gap between two objects. As a mechanic who worked with points and condenser systems, I used a dollar bill as the proper gauge distance to create the right air gap for optimum power. Standard 80 lb paper is .0055 thick, out of the package, every package. So when paper is used and the nozzle is pinching the paper, the tip should be .0055ish to the bed. You cannot much more accurate then that, 10 sheets for a penny. I dare you, absolutely double dog dare you to go to Harbor Freight and buy me a box of straight drill bits. Drill bits are not precise enough to be used as a measuring device regardless of the quality of the bit simply due to the manufacturing process. If you truly wanted to measure this in the correct manner, then you would use feeler gauges; however, tight quarters, heated beds and ease of use makes paper the way to test.
Also, unless you are removing the bed after a print, swapping beds out for one another or using FSR's for adjusting the tip to the minute variations that exist on a heated surface after they have been vigorously heated from room temperature, then the bed should be set it and forget it and your focus should be on the hotend.
]
So many men so many minds. With paper test It's very hard to get accurate calibration. Even more - for delta this is completely wrong way, because the chances to crash the head are very high - there is no safety room. Now you have an airgap, second later you have unneeded deformation of whole system. The drillbits give you a room to work, they have zero deformation under tip pressure and precise enough - I measured couple of them with calipers - the opposite end of drill bits were always pretty accurate and round even cheap drill bits from HarborTools. I use round end of drill bit, the straighteness of rod in this case doesn't play a role because of simple geometry. So, I highly recommend to try this way. But I understand that "paper as a tool" traditions is a kind of religion and I respect religious people
The manufacturing process of a drill bit is such that it will destroy any and all potential mechanical accuracy. A drill bit has never been and will never be used to gauge measurement accuracy. There are many variations in the creation of a drill bit and even from the same company, one bit will be different then another. Straightness of the rod does count as it varies based upon how its placed on the surface of the object to be measured. Again, if you want true and proper measurement of the mecahnical gap, then you need to use feeler gauges or some other tool specifically designed for this purpose. [en.wikipedia.org]
With paper, you can feel the pressure that is there indicating the distance based on drag. Feeler gauges can give this same sense of drag while maintaining an exact measurement. Even better would be a mount for a dial indicator, with that I could measure the exact distance down to 0.001 mm
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Re: Folger Tech Kossel Delta 2020 Full 3D Printer Kit w/Auto-Level November 01, 2015 01:05PM |
I propose to finish this paper-drillbit discussion. I tried both ways, my opponents don't want to even think about drill bit
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Re: Folger Tech Kossel Delta 2020 Full 3D Printer Kit w/Auto-Level November 01, 2015 01:10PM |
Quote
paul_delta
Just try, OK? You will see the difference in gradations/feeling.
PS: of course the drill bit must be small enough - 1.5mm-3mm max. With 10mm drill bit there is a chance to get non-symmetrical (oval) end.
Lol, I do not need to "try and see" I know from a lifetime of working with mechanical objects, measurement tools, manufacturing processes and designing my own objects based upon the measurements I have taken. I also have all of the proper measurement tools in my toolbox, something instilled into me at an early age by my grandfather.Buy the right tool for the right job. A drill bit is not a measurement device nor is it the right tool for the job, you absolutely cannot take a 5/16 drill bit, a number 45 drill bit or a 2.5 mm drill bit and tell someone use that as your measurement. Drill bits have variations based upon how they are made, cut, ground, shaped and sharpened. Paper; however, is like I stated before an industry standard thickness and beyond that the first measurement tool that should be used is the feeler gauge. Harbor Freight sells them for 3-5$ a pop, depending on your size requirements.
This used to be a Folgertech printer and has been rebuilt from the ground up. This was created with proper tools to measure spaces, why on earth would I use some ramshackle process to gauge a distance or tell someone else to do so?
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2015 01:31PM by thevisad.
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Re: Folger Tech Kossel Delta 2020 Full 3D Printer Kit w/Auto-Level November 01, 2015 01:28PM |
Quote
thevisad
Quote
paul_delta
Just try, OK? You will see the difference in gradations/feeling.
PS: of course the drill bit must be small enough - 1.5mm-3mm max. With 10mm drill bit there is a chance to get non-symmetrical (oval) end.
Lol, I do not need to "try and see" I know from a lifetime of working with mechanical objects, measurement tools, manufacturing processes and designing my own objects based upon the measurements I have taken. A drill bit is not a measurement device, you absolutely cannot take a 5/16 drill bit, a number 45 drill bit or a 2.5 mm drill bit and tell someone use that as your measurement. Drill bits have variations based upon how they are made, cut, ground, shaped and sharpened. Paper; however, is like I stated before an industry standard thickness.
This used to be a Folgertech printer and has been rebuilt from the ground up. This was created with proper tools to measure spaces, why on earth would I use some ramshackle process to gauge a distance or tell someone else to do so?
I know, you are cool
But the problem is that you don't listen me carefully. Again, I'm talking about round (non-working) end of drill bit as a hard, cylindrical object where diameter doesn't play any role. It's just a round object that we can roll under tip to make sure that the tip is equidistant from the bed near screws and in the center. I don't care that it's 2.98mm and not 3mm as it should. I measure it, and I know it's 2.98mm. And when everything is on level, I know that I should change ZMAX to 2.98 to get perfect zero.PS: I don't want even discuss that hardware bed leveling is much, much better that a set of software compensations with their errors and floating point math problems.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2015 01:38PM by paul_delta.
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Re: Folger Tech Kossel Delta 2020 Full 3D Printer Kit w/Auto-Level November 01, 2015 01:41PM |
Quote
paul_delta
I know, you are cool
PS: I don't want even discuss that hardware bed leveling is much, much better that a set of software compensations with their errors and floating point math problems.
Keep your patronizing comments to yourself. I did listen to you, I do understand exactly what you are referring to, I am not an idiot. A drill bits manufacturing process is enough to cause the bit to become bent. It could be bent during packaging and bent in such a small amount that your eye is unable to see this. Rolling this then bent object, which could be off by as little a few microns in size across the surface of your bed will then lead to inaccuracies. In the 3 boxes of 60+ drill bits I JUST bought are at least 15 or so that are bent visibly, others are bent only slight so that you can tell when its in the drill. I am sure others are just ever so slightly off, that means almost 1/3rd of the bits are bent, well above the 6 Sigma failure acceptable ratings. I have zero problems with you doing this for yourself, feel free to measure and create your printer any way you see fit. My issue is when you tell others to try a mechanically inaccurate process to create mechanical accuracy. So to quote your own comment, you didn't listen very carefully, this tool [www.harborfreight.com] sold for 4.49 + tax is designed for the exact purpose of what you are "trying" to do and is the proper tool to use in replacement of paper.
Again, bed leveling is a MUTE point on a printer the bed will never be removed from and does not physically move in the x,y or z axis's.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2015 01:50PM by thevisad.
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Re: Folger Tech Kossel Delta 2020 Full 3D Printer Kit w/Auto-Level November 01, 2015 01:57PM |
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paul_delta
Quote
thevisad
My issue is when you tell others to try a mechanically inaccurate process to create mechanical accuracy. So to quote your own comment, you didn't listen very carefully, this tool [www.harborfreight.com] sold for 4.49 + tax is designed for the exact purpose of what you are "trying" to do and is the proper tool to use in replacement of paper.
Again, bed leveling is a MUTE point on a printer then bed will never be removed from.
OK, we speak about issues... My issue that you make a fork of Marlin that has z-probe problems and confuse people that think that this fork is the best they can get. So, please stop spaming this tread.
Lol, ok have fun with that there
my "fork" is simply a copy of the Marlin firmware, with the tower corrections added and the configuration.h file adjusted to the settings from the original firmware provided by Folgertech. So if you have an issue with it, feel free to take it up with the original authors. It works, I used it exclusively until I upgraded to the Duet, I didn't write it. I used github for exactly the purpose it was meant for, forking code and releasing a branched version. As for spamming, feel free to report me for pointing out your using inaccurate measurements and telling others to do so as well if you wish, but you will see from my profile page that prior to replying to your inaccurate processes,I have not posted in these forums for 8 days, then 23, then 4+ weeks. Gotta love a troll like you.
[forums.reprap.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2015 01:59PM by thevisad.
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