New print surface material?

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animoose
This is a question from idle curiosity: I can see why you would need to use a higher bed temperature with PrintBite (it's a bit more insulation between the heater and the surface), but why does the hot end need to be hotter as well? Shouldn't that just affect the viscosity of the extruded plastic?

Disclaimer: I am not a chemical engineer and probably talk nonsense about such things.

I believe it is making a chemical bond of some type, possibly using van der waals forces, to adhere to the surface. It is not simply about insulation, in fact I doubt the insulating properties affect it that much, only that it takes longer to heat up slightly. By melting the plastic fully, you bring it to a more liquid state, giving a much more even covering on the build surface allowing the maximum surface area for whatever bonding or physical forces are used. I could be wrong, but this seems a much more likely explanation. This would also explain why grease is so bad, as it stops the plastic settling into the fine texture of the surface.

Most print surfaces like you to smoosh the first layer to get good adhesion, most likely because you are also using the force of the plastic leaving the extruder to give a strong adherence. PrintBite is different, I've found it prefers to have as smooth of a first layer as possible (Great for getting rid of elephants foot), and temperatures play more of a key role than anything else for adherence. I imagine this is why people have struggled with it so far, i think they just don't realise how important temperature is.

I second this although if you turn everything up 5-10 deg C for layer 1 then back to normal for layers 2 onwards you're golden.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

@Mutley:
Are there any ideas how to remove the printbite surface from the heating bed? I don't want to damage the printbite. I've bought a new MK3 alloy printbed and want to use it on them.

@all:
Can anyone share your experience printing PETG on the printbite surface?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2016 06:28AM by GrillSgt.

It's certainly possible to remove the Printbite surface from a heated bed, but it does take some time.



The adhesive is dissolved by acetone, and the adhesive also seems to contain a thin layer of cellophane/plastic type material (ie the adhesive is like double sided thin sticky tape, with an internal plastic layer). This means that once you physically separate the heatbed from the PrintBite, and you rub a surface with acetone, you end up with bits of thin plastic you need to scrape off before you can get the acetone underneath.

It took me about an hour and a half to remove all traces of adhesive from my heated bed.


As far as PETG goes, it stuck quite well to PrintBite, and was easily removed. No complaints from me as far as PETG goes. I think I used 250 noz/70 bed.

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GrillSgt
@Mutley:
Are there any ideas how to remove the printbite surface from the heating bed? I don't want to damage the printbite. I've bought a new MK3 alloy printbed and want to use it on them.

It is not too difficult to remove. Get a scraper under one edge/corner, you should then be able to peel it off. Just bear in mind it will take some force to peel off however the PrintBite sheet is pretty tough and fairly flexible so dont be scared of breaking it. You should be able to remove it in a minute or two. If you need to remove the thin film, this will peel off much easier, just with some patience and fingernails. To remove the adhesive, kitchen towel and acetone is best, you will use a fair bit of both.

Even though you have the ali mk3 heatbed, (these can still be prone to warp) I would recommend adhering the PrintBite to mirror glass or tempered glass since both of these WILL be flat. A local glass supplier should be able to offer either or both. Make sure to ask for the edges to be cleaned/smoothed. Sharp edges will lead to cracks. Of course you will also need to replace the adhesive backing to refit the PrintBite. Secure the heater underneath with clips.

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GrillSgt
@all:
Can anyone share your experience printing PETG on the printbite surface?

PrintBite works very well with PETG. Temps as nebbian suggests above or thereabouts. Increase bed temp slightly if you need to. No need to squash into the bed. Parts will self release as the bed cools. luvly jubbly.

I'm confused...
On a Prusa I3, is this used with or without the glass?
I ask because the glass has always annoyed me with those stupid clips.

I've used it without glass successfully on an i3, a Kossel Mini and a custom large bed corexy. It depends on how flat your aluminium is, both cold and hot, 3 point fixings reduce warp when hot.

I didn't like the idea of sticking it to glass, I'd still have to use clips which look awful, it's heavy with aluminium under it and it's a thermal insulator. Its is flat though!

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

Petg works great I use 240/70 first layer then 230/60. Sticks really well even slightly adhered at room temperature but not enough to need tools to remove it.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

PrintBite can be stuck to anything that is flat. I will always recommend the safe approach of using mirror or tempered glass because it is known to be flat and will remain flat when heated..

Ali tooling plate that is cast and milled flat can also be used. Ali sheet however is not cast and can warp during heat stress therefore I wont recommend it.

Of course people are welcome to deploy in the manner they see fit.

I'm curious so I have ordered a sheet in the hope of dumping Kapton tape and ABS.

Once you have the settings just right, and after using it for only a few prints, you'll be wondering how you ever printed without it.

This stuff is a total game-changer for printing. I used almost exclusively ABS for over a year and every single print just stuck and it worked as it should every time.

This was the best money I ever spent for my printer.

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DaveOB
Once you have the settings just right, and after using it for only a few prints, you'll be wondering how you ever printed without it.

This stuff is a total game-changer for printing. I used almost exclusively ABS for over a year and every single print just stuck and it worked as it should every time.

This was the best money I ever spent for my printer.

My current settings are 230/100
How much will I need to alter it?

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GRAYWOLF

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DaveOB
Once you have the settings just right, and after using it for only a few prints, you'll be wondering how you ever printed without it.

This stuff is a total game-changer for printing. I used almost exclusively ABS for over a year and every single print just stuck and it worked as it should every time.

This was the best money I ever spent for my printer.

My current settings are 230/100
How much will I need to alter it?

For ABS I would increase both 20c and make sure the print surface is actually 120c, I find abs really starts to stick at 119c for me, Anything below that and initial adhesion can be hit and miss, above that it just sticks.

That was how my deamon printer gained the name smoky!
Put the temps up, set it to print, the hotend cables snagged pulling out the thermistor and smoking out the house

Can't get the heatbed above 103, ned to bring the box in.

I've been using printbite for a month or so on a couple of different machines and wanted to share my general temperature settings for 100% reliable printing which I have spent a lot of time testing and re-testing to get just right.

Bear in mind the thermistors can only measure what they are directly touching, so what a certain temperature is according to my machine will not be the same for anybody else - you must measure the bed temperature (in particular) with an external device such as a multimeter with thermocouple or one of the cheap laser thermometers seem to do a good enough job. I have also included fan speeds, though again your fan will have a different cooling ability to mine. Both machines I used have 40mm silent fans with a quoted CFM of 4.5, ducted to a thin rectangular opening approx 40mm wide behind the nozzle.

Temperatures quoted are actual measured temperatures where stated. I don't adjust temperatures for different spools of the same material anymore as everything, including exotic PLAs like wood, copper, etc., seem to work fine at these temps.

PLA (cheap PLA: Excelvan, eSun, Hobbyking exotics, etc.): Nozzle 220 degrees, Bed (actual) 75 degrees [this machine is accurate with the bed reading, though lag in the bed heating through means first layer is actually being laid down at about 70 degrees] - NO FAN LAYER 1, 100% FAN ONWARDS
ABS (cheap ABS: Excelvan, Makibox, Hobbyking, etc.): Nozzle 255 degrees, Bed (actual) 96 degrees [this machine thinks the bed is 110 degrees at this] - NO FAN THROUGHOUT
PETG (only used 3D Prima brand so far): Nozzle 250 degrees, Bed (actual) 60 degrees first layer, 55 degrees onwards [same machine as ABS so it thinks the bed is at 70 degrees for 1st layer] - FAN 60% THROUGHOUT

These are just my experiences which I thought I'd share... I had many teething issues with printbite originally, mostly from not measuring the actual temperature of the bed - this is crucial I realise now.

Well, certenly works as advertised.

ABS 100 (actual = 91.8 according to thermometer) hotend 240 (231ish)

No tape, glue or slurry.

Perfect print, no lift.

One fail to hold print!
For some reason no matter what I try (printbite included) the Prusa i3 X-Axis tensioner will not stay stuck to the platform!
The part isn't ruined and is usable but some of the low layers are curved.
Apart from that, everything has stayed attached!

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GRAYWOLF
One fail to hold print!
For some reason no matter what I try (printbite included) the Prusa i3 X-Axis tensioner will not stay stuck to the platform!
The part isn't ruined and is usable but some of the low layers are curved.
Apart from that, everything has stayed attached!

I find that once a week, a clean with acetone brings it back to full grip.

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GRAYWOLF
One fail to hold print!
For some reason no matter what I try (printbite included) the Prusa i3 X-Axis tensioner will not stay stuck to the platform!
The part isn't ruined and is usable but some of the low layers are curved.
Apart from that, everything has stayed attached!

Judging by that picture you posted, you have some major over extrusion problems. Try knocking back the flow rate by 10%, see what happens and then adjust it in increments up/down depending on the result.

In my experience, printbite doesn't like over extrusion, especially with ABS. PLA just merges together when overextruded, but ABS tends to ball up, which may be causing there to be too many gaps in the first layer, not giving a nice adhesion. A smooth, hot first layer to helps the print bond to the surface. So far I've had very few problems printing almost any shape with printbite.

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Phytone
I find that once a week, a clean with acetone brings it back to full grip.

Um, didn't get the print to stick after that!

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Origamib
Judging by that picture you posted, you have some major over extrusion problems. Try knocking back the flow rate by 10%, see what happens and then adjust it in increments up/down depending on the result.

In my experience, printbite doesn't like over extrusion, especially with ABS. PLA just merges together when overextruded, but ABS tends to ball up, which may be causing there to be too many gaps in the first layer, not giving a nice adhesion. A smooth, hot first layer to helps the print bond to the surface. So far I've had very few problems printing almost any shape with printbite.

Dropped it down to 80%

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Origamib

Judging by that picture you posted, you have some major over extrusion problems. Try knocking back the flow rate by 10%, see what happens and then adjust it in increments up/down depending on the result.

On the contrary, I believe the issue in that picture is too low nozzle height on the first layer. You can see that the parallel lines around the perimeter at the top of the print aren't squished together very well, which indicates that he is actually underextruding a tiny bit. I agree with you that the brim is way over-extruded, which in my experience is caused by a Z height that is way too low. I'd expect that it's at least 0.15mm too low judging by that picture.

To solve:
Raise your Z height by 0.1mm, try another print, then raise in 0.05mm increments until the brim is perfect. No need to print past the first layer.

Then when you're in the right ballpark, tune your extrusion factor until you get a solid top surface and retune the Z height.

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nebbian

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Origamib

Judging by that picture you posted, you have some major over extrusion problems. Try knocking back the flow rate by 10%, see what happens and then adjust it in increments up/down depending on the result.

On the contrary, I believe the issue in that picture is too low nozzle height on the first layer. You can see that the parallel lines around the perimeter at the top of the print aren't squished together very well, which indicates that he is actually underextruding a tiny bit. I agree with you that the brim is way over-extruded, which in my experience is caused by a Z height that is way too low. I'd expect that it's at least 0.15mm too low judging by that picture.

To solve:
Raise your Z height by 0.1mm, try another print, then raise in 0.05mm increments until the brim is perfect. No need to print past the first layer.

Then when you're in the right ballpark, tune your extrusion factor until you get a solid top surface and retune the Z height.

You're probably right, A low Z offset causes similar symptoms, however the upper surface also looked over extruded to me. It's hard to tell without more pictures.

Solved the offset issue, the bed has shifted to over 3.5mm!
Don't have an image of the latest print but it seams to have missed a line on the top surface.

Doesn't matter in this case as it was a test to see if I could make a mounting plate for the smoke detector module.

Dunno what the long term issues could be but when printing abs, if you chuck slurry on this then the print will stick amazingly.

BTW had to use slurry and I'm not getting any adhesion atm (i think it is because I can't get the bed temps up high.

Hi Graywolf - if you are not able to reach temps then PrintBite wont work as effectively. Applying a weak ABS/Acetone will increase adhesion but I would advise sorting the heatbed circuit.

A standard Mk2a heatbed correctly wired with a with a half decent RAMPs/Arduino and LED PSU should easily be able to hit 120c and above. If it cant do this it might be a sign of an issue or potential fire risk if the circuit is inadequate.

Besides a 12v 250w (18amp) PSU you need correct gauge wiring from RAMPs to the heatbed (I use automotive thin wall twin core rated for 11amps), ideally the RAMPs will be actively cooled with a small fan to keep stepper drivers and mosfets cooled. Your heatbed wires should not be getting warm either - if they do it may be a possible sign of excessive circuit resistance, preventing you from reaching temps.

LED PSU's also have a trim pot on the side of them where you can increase their voltage some, this may help if it applies in your case.

HTH

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2016 07:16AM by Mutley3D.

The newest printbite sheet I have has amazing adhesion, I brushed on a drop of abs slurry on one corner just to be sure it stayed stuck as it was a long narrow part. No lifting of course, but when it was cold it was bonded solidly to the sheet. Took a big effort to unstick it. Once unstuck the sheet was perfect after a little wiping acetone. So don't use abs slurry unless you really need it.

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Simon Khoury

Co-founder of [www.precisionpiezo.co.uk] Accurate, repeatable, versatile Z-Probes
Published:Inventions

After going through PLA, ABS and PETG with great results - I'm trying Nylon (3DPrima Nylon)

Have cooked the Nylon for 10 hours in the oven to make sure it is dry, but every time the print gets more than 0.8mm thick, the darn thing lifts off the bed.
Have cleaned with Acetone - nope
Have put down a coat of hairspray - nope
Have put down a coat of PVA/water - nope
Have played around with nozzle heights, from well and truly squished to a nice bead - nope
Bed Temperatures between 70 - 100 deg - nope
Extruder temp is 250 and it comes out nice.

So can anyone share their setup for Print Bite and Nylon?

Thanks in advance!

Kevin

[forums.reprap.org]

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Phytone
After going through PLA, ABS and PETG with great results - I'm trying Nylon (3DPrima Nylon)

Have cooked the Nylon for 10 hours in the oven to make sure it is dry, but every time the print gets more than 0.8mm thick, the darn thing lifts off the bed.
Have cleaned with Acetone - nope
Have put down a coat of hairspray - nope
Have put down a coat of PVA/water - nope
Have played around with nozzle heights, from well and truly squished to a nice bead - nope
Bed Temperatures between 70 - 100 deg - nope
Extruder temp is 250 and it comes out nice.

So can anyone share their setup for Print Bite and Nylon?

Thanks in advance!

Kevin

Thanks. Will play some more - maybe start with a small item, rather than this mini quad......